This has to be one of the dumbest things I've read in a while. All vehicles are insecure. I can hook a tow truck to almost any vehicle, including an 80,000 lbs tractor trailer and drive off with it. That'd actually attract less attention that outright hotwiring a vehicle. The solution is to identify, arrest, and prosecute criminals. Which the government is not obligated to do in the US.
> That'd actually attract less attention that outright hotwiring a vehicle. Disagree. Depending on the approach taken, the theft can look like a legitimate owner getting into a car. Even the break the window and reprogram a key via ODBII port technique takes about a minute to complete. Plenty of people have posted videos of their cars being stolen (I'm part of several Camaro communities, which are big theft targets)…
Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero
511–520 of 916 posts
Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero
#512Earlier quoted context omitted.
My immediate answer is to say something like "we need more ethical education" but that's obviously kind of a weak response. The long, slow answer might be that society may re-organize itself into sub-units that do enforce ethical behaviors, and those sub-units eventually prevail over those that don't.
>and those sub-units eventually prevail over those that don't. Why do you believe this?
I don't know if it's necessarily going to be the case, but I do think one can look at contemporary society and see that certain groups with "rigid" ethical systems are prevailing over those that don't. Economically, sometimes, but even moreso in a reproductive sense. I'm thinking of groups like the Mormons, Amish, Orthodox Jews, and so forth.
Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero
#513Earlier quoted context omitted.
The reason the rule of law exists at the scale it does is precisely because what you describe, has not shown to create functional long term societies that are resilient to exogenous threats. The rule of law is literally humanity’s best attempt so far to explicitly codify human desires into a common set of descriptions. This is why the UN exists and the LON before it etc…
> This is why the UN exists and the LON before it Um, you do realize that the League of Nations was a failure ? And that the UN, although at least it still exists (unlike the LON, which only lasted a decade or so), has not accomplished anything meaningful in terms of enforcing actual norms of behavior?
Dude. I was just listening to my taxi driver tell me about how the UN helped him escape from war at 14 and got him to this country (Norway) where he’s been able to have a decent life. I’m not sure you know what you’re talking about.
Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero
#514Earlier quoted context omitted.
I am pointing out that the response to this problem isn’t, “Hey, there is a cultural problem with society finding this acceptable” and is instead “how can we re-engineer things to prevent this?”
I don't think society finds stealing cars acceptable. That's why stealing illegal, that's why they're trying to outlaw a device that makes stealing cars easier, and why this article is trying to make it illegal to have easy-to-steal cars. Outliers stealing cars is not a demonstration that some part of society finds that ethetical.
Society largely finds marijuana use acceptable, and yet it remains a federal crime. When someone cuts me in line at the store, I don't see that as ethical or acceptable, but we don't have laws against it. So your argument that unacceptable == illegal isn't set in stone.
We may have laws for things that we don't bother to enforce as a society. It's easy to see the possibility that society just views car theft as a normal occurrence ("insurance will cover it"), or perhaps too burdensome to enforce, and therefore society just accepts some amount of it without blinking an eye.
Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero
#515Earlier quoted context omitted.
You just described the “rule of law” and this is the basis for how modern governments are formed and function A constitution is written and codifies the process for making ratifying and enforcing laws. That then is the common standard for some subset of behaviors as defined by the constitution which defines who it does and does not apply to. Different constitutions outline different processes but the structure of the…
The problem with rule of law is that it's like a very sloppy program that relies heavily on global variables. Whether it's the constitution or any of the million codes they all have implicit assumptions or vague language that requires a certain cultural or ethical baseline to interpret properly. Just the 2nd amendment is already a plenty popular example.
law:
prompt engineering before it was cool
Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero
#516Philosophy warning: I don't know if there is a term for it, or if a philosopher/etc. has written about this phenomenon, but: a noticeable trend to me is what I'll call "the replacement of ethical expectations with specific, written down laws." Rather than expecting a human being to behave in certain ways intrinsically (i.e., normative ethics ) we tend to assume they will behave in the worst way possible, and then pas…
I think it's partially a size/scale problem. If 1000 people have access to flipper zeroes, the probability of an unethical actor might be low, and normative ethics may be enough. But if 1 million people have access to flipper zeroes, the probability of at least 1 bad actor is high, and laws/enforcement/deterrents must be enacted, even if the baseline ethical rate is still high.
The problem isn't the million people with flippers, the problem is the million+ people profiting in an industry that produces defective products like cars that are trivial to steal.
People sign contracts to buy very expensive automobiles because they reasonably believe that they are safe and secure to own and operate.
If car manufacturers are selling a product that they know to be unsafe and they're not telling prospective buyers that and that's fraud.
Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero
#517Earlier quoted context omitted.
And now we come to the unfortunate fact that there is no equivalent in English for the distinction between Recht and Gesetz , or droit and loi , both being subsumed under the term law . The former is an immanent thing, a "shared search after justice". The latter is temporal, it is written down and itemised in Strafgesetzbuche and Codes Civiles , and is very appealing to HNers because we can read "common standard for…
Isn't this explained in the phrase "the spirit of the law" vs. "the letter of the law", or is there more to the concept.
I suspect many Germans have varying personal interpretations (not being German). However, StackOverflow has a question/answer [1] where the most general answer is "right or freedom as in Recht auf freie Meinungsäußerung being 'freedom of speech'".
Otherwise, tends to represent "the encompassing scope of all laws" vs "the interactions of a single law."
The "the spirit of the law" tends to be more like: "what did we believe the law was supposed to do vs what does it actually result in if you're a rules lawyer."
Games have a lot of that with little oversight, legal laws tend to get publicly challenged. We made a rule where all the miniatures have to stand in squares, except now all anybody does is abuse the facing and distance rules.
[1] https://german.stackexchange.com/questions/30384/what-s-the-...
Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero
#518Earlier quoted context omitted.
You just described the “rule of law” and this is the basis for how modern governments are formed and function A constitution is written and codifies the process for making ratifying and enforcing laws. That then is the common standard for some subset of behaviors as defined by the constitution which defines who it does and does not apply to. Different constitutions outline different processes but the structure of the…
I have to object that the rule of law isn't about the extent of laws and enforcement but rather about making whatever enforce exists systematic, fair and so-forth. The concept of rule of law never implied the replacement of custom with bureaucracy - although that often happens. It implied the replacement of the venal authority of kings and nobles with codified principles. Especially, as the parent points out, customa…
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Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero
#519There are cars where the security is trivial to bypass. Create a list of those make/models. 1) Raise insurance premium on those models. 2) Force dealers that every time they sell such a car, they must get a signature from the buyer on a piece of paper that says "I recognize that the security of this car is borderline non existent and I will be paying a lot more in insurance because my car is trivial to steal". Grandf…
You know there is a manufacturer who doesn’t offer insurance to their own cars. I don’t think it has stoped people from buying
https://youtu.be/RCR-5-rf3MM?si=0vFozL7NKMC14NB2
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Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero
#520Earlier quoted context omitted.
> As a Catholic, I think I can tell you that it might be more nuanced. I believe that ethical norms are not some arbitrary rules, but are a bit like the part of a manual for some device that says under what conditions the device works properly and under what conditions it may break, only for humans. As in "if you commit adultery, you will end up unhappy; you have been warned". Forewords: I was raised in a Catholic fa…
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> the same people who threw away roughly two thousand of years of the most successful philosophy have doomed themselves to a demographic death spiral
I don't think this is true. Falling birth rate is positively correlated with key markers of quality of life (especially infant survival rate, education, overall lifespan, and productivity) irrespective of dominant religion or religiosity in general.
edit: changed "infant mortality" to "infant survival" so as to not contradict "positively correlated"