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Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

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221–230 of 916 posts

Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#221

Philosophy warning: I don't know if there is a term for it, or if a philosopher/etc. has written about this phenomenon, but: a noticeable trend to me is what I'll call "the replacement of ethical expectations with specific, written down laws." Rather than expecting a human being to behave in certain ways intrinsically (i.e., normative ethics ) we tend to assume they will behave in the worst way possible, and then pas…

I disagree. If just expecting good outcomes worked, why would we have any laws at all?

Before we had laws on child labor, we had children working and falling into heavy machinery. Before we had laws on food quality, you had to guess which milk provider was going to give you the least amount of formaldehyde poison. Before we had laws enforcing civil rights, over half the adult population in the US was disenfranchised. Was Western society exhausted at enforcing religious/ethical norms back then or is it just a recent thing?

Using the "social contract" theory for why governments and countries exist, you could say that we don't need laws until we do. Once an undocumented part of the social contract (e.g. ethical or religious norm) is no longer sufficient to maintain the integrity of the contract, it must be written down and enforced via government as a last measure. I do expect my car manufacturer to sell me a car which is relatively secure. If they are failing to meet that expectation from society, then it falls to that last measure to enforce compliance with that norm. Laws are also often used to add clarify where there is ambiguity. Different cultures and religions have different norms. If those norms conflict (does the gender of my partner matter in a marriage?), it falls to law to clarify.

It's a fair debate about how much guardrails should we put in. There's likely value in allow kids to hurt themselves as long as they aren't at risk of being permanently maimed or dying. It's a fair debate to discuss the root causes of criminal behavior, be it the issues with modern religion or systemic issues which prevent people from successfully participating in mainstream society and the economic opportunity therein. However, there is no value in allowing easily stolen vehicles (a good which has been regulated for almost a century) to be sold, where they can then be used to enable other crimes.

Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Rather than expecting a human being to behave in certain ways intrinsically (i.e., normative ethics) we tend to assume they will behave in the worst way possible, and then pass laws to supposedly prevent that behavior from manifesting. This is a necessary consequence of civilization. If you have a city of 8 million people, then you have 80,000 people in the bottom percentile of behavior by normative ethics. If some…

Sure, but it seems like enforce these ethical behaviors and punish the bottom 1% that goes against them is just as much of a solution as redesign society and the environment so that everyone can't act like that 1%.

Great - and how is that different from the law again?

Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#224

Security flaws are not born equal. I think there is supposed to be a clear distinction between flaws inherent in technology -- since you only know what you know nobody should be expected to develop impenetrable digital fortresses since that doesn't exist and would actually be harmful for the consumer -- and those flaws born out of neglect. The latter should be specified and treated accordingly, because it isn't a val…

> Security flaws are not born equal.

Absolutely. And let's bring risk into this.

Security risks are not born equal.

Serious security thinkers evaluate according to factors of likelihood, impact, mitigation cost etc.

A car is a dangerous weapon, especially in the hands of a group of giddy kids, maybe drunk or way too high to drive. The likelihood of someone getting seriously injured or killed by joyriding is high. It's really high. And there's no mitigation to a dead child. The penalty? A very firm "please don't do that again!"

But then a kid like Aaron Swartz downloads some files and gets nine felony counts totalling 50 years in jail and a $1 million fine.

A justice system with these values has no concept of risk and proportionality and is beneath contempt.

Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Rather than expecting a human being to behave in certain ways intrinsically (i.e., normative ethics) we tend to assume they will behave in the worst way possible, and then pass laws to supposedly prevent that behavior from manifesting. This is a necessary consequence of civilization. If you have a city of 8 million people, then you have 80,000 people in the bottom percentile of behavior by normative ethics. If some…

Sure, but it seems like enforce these ethical behaviors and punish the bottom 1% that goes against them is just as much of a solution as redesign society and the environment so that everyone can't act like that 1%.

People don't want their cars stolen. Punishing the thieves doesn't undo their actions.

Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#226

Philosophy warning: I don't know if there is a term for it, or if a philosopher/etc. has written about this phenomenon, but: a noticeable trend to me is what I'll call "the replacement of ethical expectations with specific, written down laws." Rather than expecting a human being to behave in certain ways intrinsically (i.e., normative ethics ) we tend to assume they will behave in the worst way possible, and then pas…

> Instead of discussing how car theft is fundamentally an unethical behavior What's to discuss? Is there any ambiguity about whether stealing cars is unethical? What are you bringing to that conversation that moves us forward?

I am pointing out that the response to this problem isn’t, “Hey, there is a cultural problem with society finding this acceptable” and is instead “how can we re-engineer things to prevent this?”

Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#227

Philosophy warning: I don't know if there is a term for it, or if a philosopher/etc. has written about this phenomenon, but: a noticeable trend to me is what I'll call "the replacement of ethical expectations with specific, written down laws." Rather than expecting a human being to behave in certain ways intrinsically (i.e., normative ethics ) we tend to assume they will behave in the worst way possible, and then pas…

I observed the same, especially with recent abortion movements (from what I heard those were also in USA and I'm assuming from what I saw on internet, it look similar to what is happening in my country)

I believe that car thieft could be exactly the same.

basically people behave like legal abortion means that women will have to perform it and that's bad. especially I hear that from religious people that they don't approve such actions in their religion. the thing that I don't get is that religious people should not perform abortion even when it's legal, so they should not care about legalizing

this is the same, you can buy knife in any store and it's legal, but this could be used to murder someone isn't that basically the same?

Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ishmael or My Ishmael touches on this subject. Thank you for reminding me. I forget exactly, but, the basic idea is primitive people didn't have all these laws about what to do. They expected you to behave, and if you did not, the tribe did not necessarily punish you, they taught you and made it right somehow (justice). Any MY description does not give this idea justice, so I need to go back and find the reference in…

Do you remember the guy who took hostages at the Discovery Channel offices in Washington DC, and tried to force them to promote his Ishmael-based manifesto on television? He was part of a MySpace group that I frequented where we discussed Quinn’s work. I remember having pretty strong disagreements with him in the forums, before he took up arms anyway…

I don't remember that happening, I think I wasn't watching the news much during that period in my life. But I did hear about it in past year after reading Quinn's books and following some mental threads afterwards. Wild that you had conversations with him!

Unfortunate people take ideas so far... we are so sure we are right.

Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#229
post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

seems like a sophisticated theft ring would have access to the keys for the most common guards like this, reminds me of the TSA key debacle[1] [1]: https://github.com/Xyl2k/TSA-Travel-Sentry-master-keys

The TSA locks have widely circulated master keys because that's a basic requirement of the system–every airport has to have some to be able to open bags. I don't know anything about these OBD port locks, but I don't see any reason they'd have a master key, other than laziness on the part of the manufacturer. Additionally, I'd imagine that such a tiny fraction of a percentage of cars have these kinds of locks that it'…

> I don't know anything about these OBD port locks, but I don't see any reason they'd have a master key

Look at it in the picture and the review pictures. They're all 'keyed' alike. It's just a single offset pin. Also one review says it just holds on with friction and can be pulled off with force.

Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The port in question is in Montreal which is in the province of Quebec. The province of Quebec is a political minefield with special status that most politicians don't want to deal with.

This is a problem throughout Canada. BC also has a serious problem.

B.C. is no where as special as Quebec. The province of B.C. has never held a referendum to split. It does not have a special language police. Nor does it call itself a country :)
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