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Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

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Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#291

Post by HeyLaughingBoy »

blitzar wrote: post #256
swozey wrote: post #213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I will never, ever keep a car I care about outside anywhere near the city. I know everyone doesn't have the funds for that, but I'm sorry, we all know how rampant car thefts have gotten since before those 3 Q50s in this video were even purchased. I live in the busiest neighborhood in downtown Denver with which has rampant property theft, cats cut out etc non-stop. I own 2 vehicles and neither of them are ever parked…

> I know everyone doesn't have the funds for that Its actually a fair bit cheaper to buy a $25k car than a $250k car.

Shhh! Don't tell anyone.

Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#292

Post by ToucanLoucan »

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #160
nulbyte wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Instead of discussing how car theft is fundamentally an unethical behavior, the discussion is about preventing some thing from being sold or existing, whether that be insecure vehicles or Flipper Zeroes. There are already laws against theft. They apply to vehicles, secure and insecure alike. A law mandating a minimum level of security, as GP suggests, seems to me to fit the suggestion, that auto manufacturers have…

We aren’t very serious about enforcing our laws, especially when kids are involved. We had police catch 12 and 13 year olds (Kia Boyz) this weekend in a car with guns, and they are out already. They will get some restorative justice, but no real correction in behavior and I’m sure they will do it again. Our real problem is just the pendulum swinging too far towards assuming people want to be good and they just need s…

> Our real problem is just the pendulum swinging too far towards assuming people want to be good and they just need some compassion.

There's an entire field of study covering how ineffective punitive justice is. Unless the perpetrator at hand is literally an irredeemable monster, locking them away in a box until they're later released with even more stigmas, even further behind the curve, and without the ability to earn a living does nothing except push them right back to the anti-social behavior that put them on the radar of the justice system in the first place.

All evidence on the subject points to the same thing: the best predictor of who will be a criminal and who won't is their zip code, because of things like under-served communities and generational poverty. When you give people no options to make a living in a pro-social way, they will do it in an anti-social one.

Does that mean every person in the justice system just needs a firm pat on the back and to be released? Fuck no. But if you long term want to actually reduce crime, the evidence is in: you do that by improving home lives and giving communities the resources they need to grow, not by locking people up.

Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#293

Post by philwelch »

Draiken wrote: post #252
philwelch wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s actually not true anymore. El Salvador has the most prisoners per capita now. They also have a lower murder rate than the US. The lowest murder rate in the entire Western Hemisphere, actually. Previously they had the highest murder rate in the world. Mass incarceration works. It doesn’t work in the US because we didn’t do enough of it.

Works for who? The corporations profiting from slave prison labor? If we at least arrested the corrupt white collar criminals that never get punished, then we could look at this as something more than an uninformed extreme measure. Imagine if wage theft wasn't merely a fine? Imagine if corruption was actually prosecuted? Then we can talk! /s

It works for the people of El Salvador who are no longer being murdered by the gangsters who are all now in prison.

Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#294

Post by rasz »

markhahn wrote: post #29
hoofhearted wrote: post #21

Sooo they have been stealing Infiniti's from my area recently with relative ease allegedly by using a Bluetooth obd2 reader connected to an android tablet running a pirated copy of some Nissan service tech software. Nobody from any of the Infiniti groups is 100% certain how they are doing it, but the best theory out there is above. Just the other night, a crew of dudes stole 3 Q50’s from my neighborhood with relative…

Obviously, we want owners to have full access to their car's CANBUS. So the question is: how should the OBD-2 plug (or wiring) be protected?

Start by not allowing thieves connect thru wheel well https://kentindell.github.io/2023/04/03/can-injection/

Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#295

Post by cyanydeez »

ryandrake wrote: post #217
bryanlarsen wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think there's anything more guaranteed to turn a 12 or 13 year old into a lifelong criminal than what I think you're implying by "real correction in behaviour"; aka a multi-year prison sentence.

If someone is stealing cars at 12 or 13 years old, they're already well on their way down the path towards irredeemability. Society has to do something or they will turn into a lifelong criminal. A multi-year prison sentence is probably not going to help them, but counseling, a better home and school environment, food in the belly, and so on might. You have to do something besides "catch and release" which has been t…

if someone is 12 or 13, they're far more receptive to change than a CEO whose spent their life stealing wages.

one gets constantly brought up while the other is celebrated.

Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#297

Post by keiferski »

pnut wrote: post #282
engineer_22 wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Religious norms guide behavior. They are a course in ethics for those without undergraduate education.

Nietzsche gave us a religion-free solution in the concept of Ubermensch 150 years ago, it's still too controversial today.

The Übermensch is fortunately/unfortunately not a mass-market kind of product, but one designed for isolated individuals.

Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#298

Post by AndrewKemendo »

keiferski wrote: post #98

Philosophy warning: I don't know if there is a term for it, or if a philosopher/etc. has written about this phenomenon, but: a noticeable trend to me is what I'll call "the replacement of ethical expectations with specific, written down laws." Rather than expecting a human being to behave in certain ways intrinsically (i.e., normative ethics ) we tend to assume they will behave in the worst way possible, and then pas…

You just described the “rule of law” and this is the basis for how modern governments are formed and function

A constitution is written and codifies the process for making ratifying and enforcing laws. That then is the common standard for some subset of behaviors as defined by the constitution which defines who it does and does not apply to. Different constitutions outline different processes but the structure of the “Rule of Law” is the same.

This is in contrast to other structures like pure monarchies (unlike constitutional monarchies) which have a “divine” process for defining the structure of the governed land.

What you seem to want is for civil law to be subordinated in favor of common law, but that simply kicks the can and doesn’t actuall solve the problem.

What’s actually happening right now is that society at large is questioning the foundational assumptions of society. To Wit this is a perfect example of effectively questioning the foundational function of governance in the post World War II world while also not being aware of it apparently.

Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#299

Post by Domenic_S »

ryandrake wrote: post #217
bryanlarsen wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think there's anything more guaranteed to turn a 12 or 13 year old into a lifelong criminal than what I think you're implying by "real correction in behaviour"; aka a multi-year prison sentence.

If someone is stealing cars at 12 or 13 years old, they're already well on their way down the path towards irredeemability. Society has to do something or they will turn into a lifelong criminal. A multi-year prison sentence is probably not going to help them, but counseling, a better home and school environment, food in the belly, and so on might. You have to do something besides "catch and release" which has been t…

> counseling, a better home and school environment, food in the belly, and so on might.

This seems right for preventing criminals from forming out of otherwise-blank-slate children, but what do you do with these kids? There's no magic wand that turns their home & school life right.

On the other hand, there are plenty of kids who had a perfectly fine and financed upbringing who turned into criminals and terrors, they just tend toward white-collar crime.

This brings us full circle to the original comment that religion used to serve a useful purpose for society that's been largely lost -- a set of ethics & morals, and if those don't take real well there's always the all-seeing entity watching you at all times. In modern times the all-seeing eye of God has been replaced by surveillance cameras, but what is the base of morals replaced by?

Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#300

Post by Domenic_S »

alwaysrunning wrote: post #288
whimsicalism wrote: post #233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

USA crime is still very low compared to pretty much the entire 20th century, it seems early to proclaim certain approaches as a failure. FWIW, catalytic converter theft was recently a big problem in the US and the classic approach of getting the FBI involved, identifying the high-level fencers and arresting, was incredibly effective and cat thefts have plummeted. I suspect disrupting the organized crime in Canada wou…

The premise that catalytic converter thefts have plummeted in the last few years is incorrect. In fact, recent data indicates that vehicle-related thefts, including catalytic converter thefts, have surged. According to a report by the National Insurance Crime Bureau (NICB), the nation experienced more than 64,000 catalytic converter thefts in 2022, with California and Texas leading the country in these incidents[3].…

No, you're looking at old data. Cat thefts in 2023 halved compared to 2022.

https://www.nbcnews.com/data-graphics/catalytic-converter-th...

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