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Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

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Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#281

Post by snarfy »

keiferski wrote: post #98

Philosophy warning: I don't know if there is a term for it, or if a philosopher/etc. has written about this phenomenon, but: a noticeable trend to me is what I'll call "the replacement of ethical expectations with specific, written down laws." Rather than expecting a human being to behave in certain ways intrinsically (i.e., normative ethics ) we tend to assume they will behave in the worst way possible, and then pas…

I remember thinking about something similar many years ago. I saw ever increasing safety mechanisms in automobiles. Instead of training to be better drives that don't crash, we add seat belts, crumple zones, multiple air bags, anti lock brake, etc. It's an arms race to mediocrity. It seemed like the end game would be cars made out of nerf.

At the time, I thought the solution was to go in the opposite direction. Add more metal, spikes, and other sharp things. Make them more dangerous, like something Sauron would drive.

Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#282

Post by pnut »

engineer_22 wrote: post #159
2024throwaway wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> religious or ethical norms Truly confused why `religious` norms come into play here.

Religious norms guide behavior. They are a course in ethics for those without undergraduate education.

Nietzsche gave us a religion-free solution in the concept of Ubermensch 150 years ago, it's still too controversial today.

Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#283

Post by cyanydeez »

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #160
nulbyte wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Instead of discussing how car theft is fundamentally an unethical behavior, the discussion is about preventing some thing from being sold or existing, whether that be insecure vehicles or Flipper Zeroes. There are already laws against theft. They apply to vehicles, secure and insecure alike. A law mandating a minimum level of security, as GP suggests, seems to me to fit the suggestion, that auto manufacturers have…

We aren’t very serious about enforcing our laws, especially when kids are involved. We had police catch 12 and 13 year olds (Kia Boyz) this weekend in a car with guns, and they are out already. They will get some restorative justice, but no real correction in behavior and I’m sure they will do it again. Our real problem is just the pendulum swinging too far towards assuming people want to be good and they just need s…

people as organizations are a larger problem that people as cultural products.

Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#284

Post by basil-rash »

snarfy wrote: post #281
keiferski wrote: post #98

Philosophy warning: I don't know if there is a term for it, or if a philosopher/etc. has written about this phenomenon, but: a noticeable trend to me is what I'll call "the replacement of ethical expectations with specific, written down laws." Rather than expecting a human being to behave in certain ways intrinsically (i.e., normative ethics ) we tend to assume they will behave in the worst way possible, and then pas…

I remember thinking about something similar many years ago. I saw ever increasing safety mechanisms in automobiles. Instead of training to be better drives that don't crash, we add seat belts, crumple zones, multiple air bags, anti lock brake, etc. It's an arms race to mediocrity. It seemed like the end game would be cars made out of nerf. At the time, I thought the solution was to go in the opposite direction. Add m…

Yes. This is why I disabled my car’s airbags: nothing will keep you more alert and defensive when driving than an awareness that any accident will result in near certain death.

Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#285

Post by rasz »

hoofhearted wrote: post #21

Sooo they have been stealing Infiniti's from my area recently with relative ease allegedly by using a Bluetooth obd2 reader connected to an android tablet running a pirated copy of some Nissan service tech software. Nobody from any of the Infiniti groups is 100% certain how they are doing it, but the best theory out there is above. Just the other night, a crew of dudes stole 3 Q50’s from my neighborhood with relative…

Infinite Infinity car hack, came with two, left with three Q50s.

They do crouch an awful lot near front wheel well. Reminds me of this Toyota hack where thieves plug into headlight canbus wiring thru wheel arch https://kentindell.github.io/2023/04/03/can-injection/

Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#287

Post by darkwater »

mbork_pl wrote: post #255
quatrefoil wrote: post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Religious norms and laws were the same for much of history. You could get stoned for adultery for a good while... The decoupling of the two is a pretty recent phenomenon. For a while after, religious and secular norms still provided a fairly rigid template for how you're supposed to behave, but we dismantled a lot of that too. For good reasons, just with a lot of unforeseen consequences. I don't think the phenomenon…

> For good reasons I wouldn't be so sure... > just with a lot of unforeseen consequences. Exactly, a classical case of Chesterton's fence. > The laws we're passing are a consequence of belief systems too. Some of them are (and you're making a very good point here!), but some of them may be just pragmatic. > For people who see the world that way, these beliefs are unfalsifiable Again, very true. > just like the belief…

> As a Catholic, I think I can tell you that it might be more nuanced. I believe that ethical norms are not some arbitrary rules, but are a bit like the part of a manual for some device that says under what conditions the device works properly and under what conditions it may break, only for humans. As in "if you commit adultery, you will end up unhappy; you have been warned".

Forewords: I was raised in a Catholic family, in a Catholic environment and I was a practicing Catholic up to almost 18yo. Then, I changed my mind through reading and experiencing the world as a young adult, and now I 'm probably biased the other way round (just like smoke quitters). No offenses intended, don't feel attacked.

I really struggle to understand how nowadays we are still somehow blind to the fact that religions were always basically a way to pass ethical behaviors to the population, playing the "almighty divine being" card.

Just like you would tell a child that Santa Claus is bringing their gifts and he and his assistants are watching you all the time, and know if you are good or naughty, and bring presents accordingly. Our society has - or should have - grown up by now, and we should be able to teach a shared ethical background without the need to use the God device. There is no need for a God that will give you his love Heaven or Hell to treat someone that is just like you, the same way you would like to be treated.

Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#288

Post by alwaysrunning »

whimsicalism wrote: post #233
ryandrake wrote: post #217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If someone is stealing cars at 12 or 13 years old, they're already well on their way down the path towards irredeemability. Society has to do something or they will turn into a lifelong criminal. A multi-year prison sentence is probably not going to help them, but counseling, a better home and school environment, food in the belly, and so on might. You have to do something besides "catch and release" which has been t…

USA crime is still very low compared to pretty much the entire 20th century, it seems early to proclaim certain approaches as a failure. FWIW, catalytic converter theft was recently a big problem in the US and the classic approach of getting the FBI involved, identifying the high-level fencers and arresting, was incredibly effective and cat thefts have plummeted. I suspect disrupting the organized crime in Canada wou…

The premise that catalytic converter thefts have plummeted in the last few years is incorrect. In fact, recent data indicates that vehicle-related thefts, including catalytic converter thefts, have surged. According to a report by the National Insurance Crime Bureau (NICB), the nation experienced more than 64,000 catalytic converter thefts in 2022, with California and Texas leading the country in these incidents[3]. This represents a significant increase from 16,660 claims in 2020 to 64,701 in 2022, indicating a rising trend in catalytic converter thefts[3].

Furthermore, overall vehicle thefts have also increased. The FBI's annual crime report showed that there were 721,852 car thefts across the country in 2022, up from 601,453 incidents in 2021 and 420,952 reported in 2020[2]. This surge in car thefts has been attributed to various factors, including economic downturns, supply chain issues, and the high demand for cars and parts[4]. Additionally, a viral TikTok challenge encouraging the theft of Kia and Hyundai vehicles for joyrides, known as performance crime, has contributed to the uptick in car thefts[2].

Therefore, the data clearly indicates that catalytic converter thefts, as well as overall vehicle thefts, have not plummeted but have significantly increased in the last few years.

Citations: [1] https://www.iii.org/fact-statistic/facts-statistics-auto-the... [2] https://nypost.com/2023/10/18/car-theft-soared-20-last-year-... [3] https://www.nicb.org/news/news-releases/catalytic-converter-... [4] https://www.deepsentinel.com/blogs/car-theft-statistics/ [5] https://www.forbes.com/sites/jimgorzelany/2023/11/06/report-... [6] https://www.statista.com/statistics/191216/reported-motor-ve... [7] https://www.cbsnews.com/news/car-thefts-are-on-the-rise-why-... [8] https://stateline.org/2024/02/09/car-thefts-and-carjackings-...

Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#290

Post by acdha »

kube-system wrote: post #251
twodave wrote: post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The manufacturer should maintain a root cert that can be used. If that root cert is compromised then they should have a way of rotating keys if the vehicle and physical keys are present. Breaches then constitute what amounts to a software recall, putting the onus on the manufacturer to report them or be held liable for thefts. The recall notice puts the liability on the driver to have their vehicle updated (for free)…

To do that, we'd probably need to accept one of these as a consequence: 1. all cars must be internet connected so they can pull CRLs 2. dealers and locksmiths are no longer able to replace keys, you will have to ship the car back to the manufacturer if you lose your keys. Because there's no secure way to hand out the root cert to the thousands of organizations authorized to replace keys today.

The situation doesn’t need to be as strict as #2: you could have a way for a registered service shop to get a per-device rekey by shifting some liability to them. Making it per device prevents bulk usage and an active communication with the manufacturer would mean the cops could ask the owners of a shady auto shop some questions when 80% of the stolen cars in the area are being rekeyed at a place the owners have never been to. I lost a car key once and the locksmith who showed up checked my drivers license against the title database because he could have been penalized for unlocking a vehicle without doing so - we could make the same model work electronically because while car thieves are anonymous, legitimate repair shops have a business presence and reputation to preserve. Even someone amoral isn’t going to look the other way for something which will cost them their primary revenue stream.
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