Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

saveflipper.ca

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

211–220 of 916 posts

Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#211

Post by kube-system »

Banning either is silly. Locks on things in the physical world can only be a deterrent because physical objects are subject to much easier brute force attacks than a problem in the digital world is. If you forced automakers to make their digital keys more secure, it wouldn't improve security, because you could still winch the whole car on to a rental trailer in 30 seconds.

The Kia Boys notwithstanding, basically all cars that are stolen these days are either stolen with the keys, or towed.

Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#212

Post by samtho »

thinkingtoilet wrote: post #154
keiferski wrote: post #98

Philosophy warning: I don't know if there is a term for it, or if a philosopher/etc. has written about this phenomenon, but: a noticeable trend to me is what I'll call "the replacement of ethical expectations with specific, written down laws." Rather than expecting a human being to behave in certain ways intrinsically (i.e., normative ethics ) we tend to assume they will behave in the worst way possible, and then pas…

The problem with this is all it takes is one bad actor to cause a lot of chaos and destruction. The laws are needed.

This is a dangerous road to travel, as the exact same thing can be said about most other tools that can be abused. Knee-jerk reactions like this are shortsightedly ignorant and do nothing to mitigate actual harm being done.

Flipper zero’s capability is not based on some super advanced technology, it can be replicated. Banning stuff is an easy way to cover the problem up but instead of actually fixing anything, it is sent out of view of the mainstream and into shallow obscurity.

People who steal cars already break the law, breaking an extra one by possessing the tool is not going to be a deterrent. Researchers and security auditors who stay above board will no longer have access to this tool if they expect to exist in a professional capacity, effectively kneecapping their ability as our allies to help us create more secure systems.

Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#213

Post by swozey »

hoofhearted wrote: post #21

Sooo they have been stealing Infiniti's from my area recently with relative ease allegedly by using a Bluetooth obd2 reader connected to an android tablet running a pirated copy of some Nissan service tech software. Nobody from any of the Infiniti groups is 100% certain how they are doing it, but the best theory out there is above. Just the other night, a crew of dudes stole 3 Q50’s from my neighborhood with relative…

I will never, ever keep a car I care about outside anywhere near the city.

I know everyone doesn't have the funds for that, but I'm sorry, we all know how rampant car thefts have gotten since before those 3 Q50s in this video were even purchased. I live in the busiest neighborhood in downtown Denver with which has rampant property theft, cats cut out etc non-stop.

I own 2 vehicles and neither of them are ever parked outside if I can help it. It means I have to pay pretty much twice for rent because now I need a 1-2 car private garage, which means I'm probably now in a condo or townhouse so every expense just gets higher and higher.

But you're in the bracket of living downtown with a brand new Q50. So I don't care what your excuse is, buying a luxury/attention-getter car and parking it outside in cities with rampant car thefts is just absolutely stupid.

Especially the people who buy the $80k luxu-box with the $5k 22" wheel add-on that gets ripped out of their mid-rise apartment parking garage a day later.

I've had a car stolen and insurance does NOT treat you well when it happens and I never, ever want to deal with having a car stolen again no matter how much gaap/etc. I have.

Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#214

Post by caskstrength »

newsclues wrote: post #176
caskstrength wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What do we know about computer security and physical access? If I can touch the machine, I can hack and own it. Can you hack and own my fully patched Pixel phone? Or my GF's iPhone? Sure, sophisticated state-sponsored actors can sometimes do it by burning several million dollars worth of 0days in the process, but some two-digit IQ riff-raffs? Probably not so much. EDIT: just to be clear - by "two-digit IQ riff-raff…

This is done by organized crime with engineers on staff. Sure it’s drug addicts stealing cars but the people shipping them are smart and have access to capital.

I agree, but that brings us back to my original question: why can't same smart organized crime people unlock my smartphone then? Because Apple/Google give a damn about security and car manufacturers do not.

Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#215

Post by madeofpalk »

keiferski wrote: post #98

Philosophy warning: I don't know if there is a term for it, or if a philosopher/etc. has written about this phenomenon, but: a noticeable trend to me is what I'll call "the replacement of ethical expectations with specific, written down laws." Rather than expecting a human being to behave in certain ways intrinsically (i.e., normative ethics ) we tend to assume they will behave in the worst way possible, and then pas…

> Instead of discussing how car theft is fundamentally an unethical behavior

What's to discuss? Is there any ambiguity about whether stealing cars is unethical? What are you bringing to that conversation that moves us forward?

Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#216

Post by iraqmtpizza »

nulbyte wrote: post #111
keiferski wrote: post #98

Philosophy warning: I don't know if there is a term for it, or if a philosopher/etc. has written about this phenomenon, but: a noticeable trend to me is what I'll call "the replacement of ethical expectations with specific, written down laws." Rather than expecting a human being to behave in certain ways intrinsically (i.e., normative ethics ) we tend to assume they will behave in the worst way possible, and then pas…

> Instead of discussing how car theft is fundamentally an unethical behavior, the discussion is about preventing some thing from being sold or existing, whether that be insecure vehicles or Flipper Zeroes. There are already laws against theft. They apply to vehicles, secure and insecure alike. A law mandating a minimum level of security, as GP suggests, seems to me to fit the suggestion, that auto manufacturers have…

false advertising and fraud are already banned. car theft is banned. cars below a certain price are effectively banned by regulations. poorly lit parking lots are almost certainly partially banned. soon, leaving one's car in a dark parking lot will be banned.

Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#217

Post by ryandrake »

bryanlarsen wrote: post #184
seanmcdirmid wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We aren’t very serious about enforcing our laws, especially when kids are involved. We had police catch 12 and 13 year olds (Kia Boyz) this weekend in a car with guns, and they are out already. They will get some restorative justice, but no real correction in behavior and I’m sure they will do it again. Our real problem is just the pendulum swinging too far towards assuming people want to be good and they just need s…

I don't think there's anything more guaranteed to turn a 12 or 13 year old into a lifelong criminal than what I think you're implying by "real correction in behaviour"; aka a multi-year prison sentence.

If someone is stealing cars at 12 or 13 years old, they're already well on their way down the path towards irredeemability. Society has to do something or they will turn into a lifelong criminal. A multi-year prison sentence is probably not going to help them, but counseling, a better home and school environment, food in the belly, and so on might. You have to do something besides "catch and release" which has been the default in the USA for some time.

Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#218

Post by RandomLensman »

keiferski wrote: post #148
2024throwaway wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> religious or ethical norms Truly confused why `religious` norms come into play here.

Because the modern Western world is in a "religion hangover" where it wants to reject all outwardly religious ideas, while simultaneously denying that a) religions have been the foundation of pretty much all ethical behavior since the beginning of civilization and b) many supposedly secular belief systems are really just extensions of religious ones with the "I believe in..." statement cut off.

Not sure about Western world as a whole here. Some countries do not have such hard separation between church and state, but governing parties with clear religious affiliation, constitutions referencing God, religious holidays with bans on certain activities, etc.

Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#219

Post by 2024throwaway »

engineer_22 wrote: post #206
2024throwaway wrote: post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

[flagged]

You can just say "I have no defense of my statement" instead of acting like I'm the one out of line. You claimed religious norms are a course in ethics, I provided counter examples. Try and do better.

Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#220

Post by keiferski »

RandomLensman wrote: post #202
keiferski wrote: post #98

Philosophy warning: I don't know if there is a term for it, or if a philosopher/etc. has written about this phenomenon, but: a noticeable trend to me is what I'll call "the replacement of ethical expectations with specific, written down laws." Rather than expecting a human being to behave in certain ways intrinsically (i.e., normative ethics ) we tend to assume they will behave in the worst way possible, and then pas…

Why put all Western countries into the same bucket? Car theft is much more prevalent in the US than Germany, for example.

Fair point. It may have more to do with Anglo or American culture than with the West at large, although I think the same deeper trends are still at play.
Post reply on HN