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Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

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Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#491

Post by gumby »

keiferski wrote: post #98

Philosophy warning: I don't know if there is a term for it, or if a philosopher/etc. has written about this phenomenon, but: a noticeable trend to me is what I'll call "the replacement of ethical expectations with specific, written down laws." Rather than expecting a human being to behave in certain ways intrinsically (i.e., normative ethics ) we tend to assume they will behave in the worst way possible, and then pas…

We have long operated this way. Banks have security guards even though there are laws against theft. Greengrocers often have fresh fruit outside with no way to stop people from grabbing some and running off.

It's simply the way of the world. I don't believe it's change materially, except to the degree that the ability to self defend (e.g. better locks) and to identify miscreants (e.g. cameras) has improved.

I do feel that there are more private security guards than there used to be but when I watch old movies I'm not sure my impression is correct.

Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#493

Post by keiferski »

krisoft wrote: post #458
keiferski wrote: post #98

Philosophy warning: I don't know if there is a term for it, or if a philosopher/etc. has written about this phenomenon, but: a noticeable trend to me is what I'll call "the replacement of ethical expectations with specific, written down laws." Rather than expecting a human being to behave in certain ways intrinsically (i.e., normative ethics ) we tend to assume they will behave in the worst way possible, and then pas…

> Instead of discussing how car theft is fundamentally an unethical behavior, Discuss it if you want to. Do you think you will find many who disagrees with you? What new outcome or insight do you hope from that discussion? > we tend to assume they will behave in the worst way possible We don't assume anything. We observe what is happening. People do steal cares. If you want to change that you have to change something…

It's not about "disagreeing with me." The point I'm making is that the discussion is not about how to change this unethical behavior, it's merely about changing the environment to prevent the behavior from being possible.

And yes, it is a "new method" because it's a self-reinforcing one. Not too long ago, it was common for people to leave their doors unlocked, as the idea of car theft was simply not a thing that happened in that community. It's still largely a think in many places; e.g., rural Japan.

Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#494

Post by hot_gril »

eli wrote: post #53
sidewndr46 wrote: post #10

This has to be one of the dumbest things I've read in a while. All vehicles are insecure. I can hook a tow truck to almost any vehicle, including an 80,000 lbs tractor trailer and drive off with it. That'd actually attract less attention that outright hotwiring a vehicle. The solution is to identify, arrest, and prosecute criminals. Which the government is not obligated to do in the US.

These cars are being sold with defective security measures. They don't work the way manufactures promise or customers expect. It shouldn't be any different than a car sold with headlights that are too dim

Yet they're probably more secure than just a regular car that's on the older side.

Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#495

Post by tsimionescu »

bee_rider wrote: post #396
GenerocUsername wrote: post #362

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a melting pot, the US takes in a lot of folks from countries that are not doing very well... so in a way, if we keep importing folks from cultures that failed without trying to integrate them to our culture, and instead celebrate their original culture, eventually our amalgam culture will fail just like theirs did. Its why we have signs that say to "sit, not stand on toilets". You dont think we would need to write…

The melting pot is a way of integrating people into our country. It has been criticized as being too homogenizing; and now I think (for the better) most people see it as a nice lumpy stew. We shouldn’t ask people to give up all their traditions or change completely to become American, it is a give and take communication process that we both benefit from. WRT toilets, I think it has been shown that squatting actually…

> WRT toilets, I think it has been shown that squatting actually reduces the strain when using the toilet; I think those signs reflect the fact that we are integrating new toilet information. They are part of the natural back-and-forth pushing process. Hopefully we’ll converge on a toilet that is lower to the ground but doesn’t have accessibility issues.

Squatting toilets are fine, maybe they are even better. But the signs are about people squatting with their feet on the toilet bowl on a sitting toilet. That is dangerous (the bowl can easily break from the pressure of your feet) and dirty (you are very likely to leave the area around dirty, and there are typically no ways to clean the outside of the bowl in typical western bathrooms).

Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#496

Post by hot_gril »

schaefer wrote: post #488

I have a younger brother that recently bought a Kia as his first car. It's been broken into 3 times in less than a of ownership year. Kia sent him a cheep "Club style" steering wheel lock... -- From my perspective, getting stuck with this lemon will significantly compromise his quality of life and finances for years to come. Where are our consumer protections? Kia should be on the hook for fixing the problem or buyin…

Unfortunately, the only consumer protection for this is in the form of brand reputation. Even before this incident, I would've never bought a Kia (or a Hyundai).

Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#497

Post by MeImCounting »

saint_fiasco wrote: post #419
MeImCounting wrote: post #208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is that I think these hands free remote start locks are more expensive than actual real physical locks which are immune to the types of attacks so that argument just actually doesnt work at all.

My bad, I was thinking in terms of the expensive remote start lock vs an even more expensive and safer remote start lock. But if the fancy insecure lock is more expensive, the problem should fix itself eventually, right? Consumers will switch back to the cheaper system of their own accord. It sucks for the people who bought the insecure cars without knowing, but banning insecure cars is not going to help them retroac…

Where I live the used car market is hot. It is hard to find a car made before 2012 because for the most part they are as reliable and fuel efficient as modern cars, are cheaper to repair, and cheaper to insure.

I dont think they are so desirable just because they are more secure but they dont have remote start options so they are at least in part more secure than modern remote start cars. The problem I am getting at is that there are no secure modern car options. None.

Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#498

Post by nonethewiser »

whimsicalism wrote: post #96
nonethewiser wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

1. This has absolutely nothing to do with the discussion at hand - you’re literally just pulling a specific criminal case out of your ass in a country of 315 million. 2. The perps were charged and indicted, hardly ‘not enforcing laws’. 3. Law enforcement and prosecutorial discretion exists in every developed country in the world.

> 1. This has absolutely nothing to do with the discussion at hand

We can't expect to solve the car crime problem by only beefing up car security. It also requires holding people accountable for their behavior. Besides, what a ridiculous thing to say. This is the discussion at hand, partially by virtue of you talking about it.

> you’re literally just pulling a specific criminal case out of your ass in a country of 315 million.

So you agree they are clearly in the wrong with this one case then? Besides, this case is a result of policy set by the largest city in the country. We can look at policies in other cities like LA and SF. They do nothing to dispel the fact that the policies on crime are very weak.

> 2. The perps were charged and indicted, hardly ‘not enforcing laws’.

They were released in 4 hours then fled the city

> 3. Law enforcement and prosecutorial discretion exists in every developed country in the world.

And no one is criticizing that it exists. The judgment is just extremely poor sometimes. Wouldn't you agree the judgment was poor in this case? Do you think it was the right decision to release them after 4 hours?

Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#499

Post by strangattractor »

keiferski wrote: post #98

Philosophy warning: I don't know if there is a term for it, or if a philosopher/etc. has written about this phenomenon, but: a noticeable trend to me is what I'll call "the replacement of ethical expectations with specific, written down laws." Rather than expecting a human being to behave in certain ways intrinsically (i.e., normative ethics ) we tend to assume they will behave in the worst way possible, and then pas…

Another way to frame it (IMHO) might be not to think of laws as a deterrent - especially because people break them anyway. The law codifies what circumstances the government can and cannot restrict your rights. Codifying this serves 2 primary purposes. It informs people in advance what is allowable so people cannot be arbitrarily arrested for doing things they don't know is illegal. Secondly it prescribes the penalty for that behavior so that in extreme cases we can remove a person that insists on that behavior. If there is no law prohibiting a behavior the gov't effectively cannot do anything about it. I see laws as only being useful after the crime has occurred.

Yes this system gets gamed and abused. Curbing that requires constant effort just as deciding what laws need to be codified is a ongoing process.

Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#500

Post by jbombadil »

There are cars where the security is trivial to bypass. Create a list of those make/models. 1) Raise insurance premium on those models. 2) Force dealers that every time they sell such a car, they must get a signature from the buyer on a piece of paper that says "I recognize that the security of this car is borderline non existent and I will be paying a lot more in insurance because my car is trivial to steal".

Grandfather in people who already have such make models or give some time to manufacturers to improve security.

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