Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero • Hacker News Board

Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#311

Post by keiferski » Wed, Feb 21, 2024, 4:54 PM UTC

unethical_ban wrote: post #272

keiferski wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, but it seems like enforce these ethical behaviors and punish the bottom 1% that goes against them is just as much of a solution as redesign society and the environment so that everyone can't act like that 1%.

You seem to suggest that parents and schools are not teaching ethical behavior. Do you think this is happening at a large scale? I know some leftists (I'm liberal) who don't seem to care about minor theft or crime because it seems like peanuts next to the civilization-wrecking greed and pollution and wealth transfer underway by the owners of capital. But I don't think that is a majority thought. I personally think th…

I don't really get the impression that teachers are expected to instill strong moral values, more just teach the subject and then leave.

With parents, my feeling is not so much that society expects them to instill strong ethical values in their children, but rather something more pragmatic, Machiavellian, "making it in life," and so forth.

Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#312

Post by gchamonlive » Wed, Feb 21, 2024, 4:55 PM UTC

engineer_22 wrote: post #180

gchamonlive wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a big difference in putting together deadly artifacts and electronic devices you can fabricate using off-the-shelf chips and open protocols. Not saying you can't discuss regulating them, but to me they are in a different set of categories. Weapons are by default dangerous, their sole purpose being to cause physical harm, while a flipper zero can be used for instructional purposes and research. As much as I h…

> but a weapon can't be in any imaginable circumstance reachable by anyone untrained. I agree with your main point that the FZ is easily reproduced. I think you miss the mark with this one. Firearms are easily made at home with simple tools and off-the-shelf materials. For example, the United States has a rich tradition of home-made firearms. To provide a concrete example, a shotgun can be made with a length of steel…

Well that is not my main point in the comment you responded to

Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#313

Post by HeyLaughingBoy » Wed, Feb 21, 2024, 4:56 PM UTC

stainablesteel wrote: post #35

how are major car manufacturers so far behind in security? and why can't they go back to the old solutions that didn't have these problems? its just such a stupid thing to watch IF these fancy keys that let you start your car without inserting anything cause your car to become extremely vulnerable THEN maybe its a bad idea, jesus christ

Because the old solutions had other problems that made them less secure.

Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#314

Post by bee_rider » Wed, Feb 21, 2024, 4:56 PM UTC

keiferski wrote: post #98

Philosophy warning: I don't know if there is a term for it, or if a philosopher/etc. has written about this phenomenon, but: a noticeable trend to me is what I'll call "the replacement of ethical expectations with specific, written down laws." Rather than expecting a human being to behave in certain ways intrinsically (i.e., normative ethics ) we tend to assume they will behave in the worst way possible, and then pas…

> Instead of discussing how car theft is fundamentally an unethical behavior, the discussion is about preventing some thing from being sold or existing, whether that be insecure vehicles or Flipper Zeroes.

I’m a bit off-track from your point here, but to some extent I think it is just because there isn’t anything interesting to say about car theft being unethical. It is, but what do we want to discuss? Flipper Zero is interesting to talk about because it’s a new device and there’s a bit of perceived grey-area around the ethics of selling it.

> My theory is that this is a consequence of relativism and the general cultural exhaustion Western society seems to have with enforcing any sort of religious or ethical norms.

> I really don't like the way this is going, because the end result is a world where limitations are hardwired into the environment, while at the same time you have zero ethical expectations of your fellow humans. It's very Hunger Games / Battle Royale, at a less hostile level.

We’ve always had a strain of ruthless FYGM capitalism in the US (including when the country was more religious). I think that is what those stories are mostly criticizing?

Lack of ethics is a competitive advantage to be exploited by some. You would think there’d be strong norms like “don’t dump toxic waste in the river” but here we are with an EPA.

So I think this isn’t new. What might be new is the “I’m going to exploit the rules to maximum advantage” mindset becoming so widespread? This doesn’t seem that surprising; it is the default mindset of powerful people after all, and as communication tech has gotten better everybody can see that.

Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#315

Post by autoexec » Wed, Feb 21, 2024, 4:56 PM UTC

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #160

nulbyte wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Instead of discussing how car theft is fundamentally an unethical behavior, the discussion is about preventing some thing from being sold or existing, whether that be insecure vehicles or Flipper Zeroes. There are already laws against theft. They apply to vehicles, secure and insecure alike. A law mandating a minimum level of security, as GP suggests, seems to me to fit the suggestion, that auto manufacturers have…

We aren’t very serious about enforcing our laws, especially when kids are involved. We had police catch 12 and 13 year olds (Kia Boyz) this weekend in a car with guns, and they are out already. They will get some restorative justice, but no real correction in behavior and I’m sure they will do it again. Our real problem is just the pendulum swinging too far towards assuming people want to be good and they just need s…

> We aren’t very serious about enforcing our laws, especially when kids are involved.

In the US we lock more of our citizens behind bars than any other nation on Earth. Conviction for even a minor offense can make it extremely difficult to get employment or housing. People rarely get a clean slate after serving their time and even an arrest record without a conviction can haunt you. Nearly all other developed countries have abolished capitol punishment. We haven't gone a single year since 1981 without an execution.

The pendulum has already swung too far towards punishment and law enforcement, to the point that abuses by police and our mass incarceration problem are a total embarrassment for a country that tries to call itself "the land of the free" with a straight face.

There's little doubt that many of the people arrested in the US would do better with some compassion than they would with harsher punishment. This is especially true for literal children. One example where compassion is the better option would be treating addiction instead of punishing drug addicts. That would save billions in tax dollars, reduce crime, and help the addict to recover their lives and remove several barriers that could prevent them from getting work and being productive members of society. If we'd done that decades ago instead of feeding US citizens to the prison industrial complex we'd be so much better off as a nation today.

There's a risk for over-correcting, but there's also a massive amount of space between "do nothing" and our usual method today which amounts to "torture then never forgive" or "torture then kill" so there's plenty of opportunity to find some improvements.

Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#316

Post by mysterydip » Wed, Feb 21, 2024, 4:57 PM UTC

markhahn wrote: post #29

hoofhearted wrote: post #21

Sooo they have been stealing Infiniti's from my area recently with relative ease allegedly by using a Bluetooth obd2 reader connected to an android tablet running a pirated copy of some Nissan service tech software. Nobody from any of the Infiniti groups is 100% certain how they are doing it, but the best theory out there is above. Just the other night, a crew of dudes stole 3 Q50’s from my neighborhood with relative…

Obviously, we want owners to have full access to their car's CANBUS. So the question is: how should the OBD-2 plug (or wiring) be protected?

Instead of technical/computational solutions, maybe there's a low tech cage/shell that can be put around it so anyone can't just plug in?

Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#317

Post by seanmcdirmid » Wed, Feb 21, 2024, 4:57 PM UTC

bryanlarsen wrote: post #184

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We aren’t very serious about enforcing our laws, especially when kids are involved. We had police catch 12 and 13 year olds (Kia Boyz) this weekend in a car with guns, and they are out already. They will get some restorative justice, but no real correction in behavior and I’m sure they will do it again. Our real problem is just the pendulum swinging too far towards assuming people want to be good and they just need s…

I don't think there's anything more guaranteed to turn a 12 or 13 year old into a lifelong criminal than what I think you're implying by "real correction in behaviour"; aka a multi-year prison sentence.

> I don't think there's anything more guaranteed to turn a 12 or 13 year old into a lifelong criminal than what I think you're implying by "real correction in behaviour"; aka a multi-year prison sentence.

Society had better correct that problem quickly or those two 12/13 year old kids are going to have ruined their lives by the time they turn 18. Something drastic has to be done, a slap on the wrist and sending them back to their parents isn't sufficient. Right now we fail on both sides of the pendulum, maybe its time to rethink things.

I do think Europe does deal better with this. Even in France, they have a fairly aggressive/intolerant police force, but a real correction focus once arrests/convictions have occurred.

Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#318

Post by trabant00 » Wed, Feb 21, 2024, 4:57 PM UTC

keiferski wrote: post #98

Philosophy warning: I don't know if there is a term for it, or if a philosopher/etc. has written about this phenomenon, but: a noticeable trend to me is what I'll call "the replacement of ethical expectations with specific, written down laws." Rather than expecting a human being to behave in certain ways intrinsically (i.e., normative ethics ) we tend to assume they will behave in the worst way possible, and then pas…

We know a lot of people will behave in bad ways. We don't have to assume anything. We have thousands of years of experience. Under every possible form of ethical and religious setting imaginable.

And then what does this have to do with the Western society? There's no stealing in East? Or anywhere on this planet? At this time or any other? And you think religious morals are better for a society than secular laws? Like we haven't already tried that and don't know how it goes. And what the hell does any of this have to do with some pretty stupid movies?

Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#319

Post by 14 » Wed, Feb 21, 2024, 4:57 PM UTC

swozey wrote: post #213

hoofhearted wrote: post #21

Sooo they have been stealing Infiniti's from my area recently with relative ease allegedly by using a Bluetooth obd2 reader connected to an android tablet running a pirated copy of some Nissan service tech software. Nobody from any of the Infiniti groups is 100% certain how they are doing it, but the best theory out there is above. Just the other night, a crew of dudes stole 3 Q50’s from my neighborhood with relative…

I will never, ever keep a car I care about outside anywhere near the city. I know everyone doesn't have the funds for that, but I'm sorry, we all know how rampant car thefts have gotten since before those 3 Q50s in this video were even purchased. I live in the busiest neighborhood in downtown Denver with which has rampant property theft, cats cut out etc non-stop. I own 2 vehicles and neither of them are ever parked…

It would be trivial to hard wire a kill switch to your fuel pump and have it hidden somewhere so no matter what thief’s can’t drive off with your car. Much cheaper and more secure as cars can be stolen from parking garages.

Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#320

Post by AndrewKemendo » Wed, Feb 21, 2024, 4:58 PM UTC

keiferski wrote: post #308

AndrewKemendo wrote: post #298

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You just described the “rule of law” and this is the basis for how modern governments are formed and function A constitution is written and codifies the process for making ratifying and enforcing laws. That then is the common standard for some subset of behaviors as defined by the constitution which defines who it does and does not apply to. Different constitutions outline different processes but the structure of the…

That's an interesting thought, but I would say instead that I'm in favor of culture being the "first line of defense" and not the law. In other words, I can leave my door unlocked because I am a part of a culture where that sort of thing doesn't happen. Not because there is a law written down somewhere. This has functionally been my experience in a number of spaces, including private workspaces (i.e., you don't expec…

The reason the rule of law exists at the scale it does is precisely because what you describe, has not shown to create functional long term societies that are resilient to exogenous threats.

The rule of law is literally humanity’s best attempt so far to explicitly codify human desires into a common set of descriptions.

This is why the UN exists and the LON before it etc…