Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero • Hacker News Board

Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#301

Post by whimsicalism » Wed, Feb 21, 2024, 4:48 PM UTC

alwaysrunning wrote: post #288

whimsicalism wrote: post #233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

USA crime is still very low compared to pretty much the entire 20th century, it seems early to proclaim certain approaches as a failure. FWIW, catalytic converter theft was recently a big problem in the US and the classic approach of getting the FBI involved, identifying the high-level fencers and arresting, was incredibly effective and cat thefts have plummeted. I suspect disrupting the organized crime in Canada wou…

The premise that catalytic converter thefts have plummeted in the last few years is incorrect. In fact, recent data indicates that vehicle-related thefts, including catalytic converter thefts, have surged. According to a report by the National Insurance Crime Bureau (NICB), the nation experienced more than 64,000 catalytic converter thefts in 2022, with California and Texas leading the country in these incidents[3].…

My comment was confusing so let me address what you are saying:

1. This is a very recent thing I am discussing, the fencers were only arrested in the beginning of 2023 and the thefts have fallen in 2023, specifically second half. This should be available in more fine-grained crime stats or simply by looking at like google trends of catalytic converter replacement searches.

2. Crime is much lower than in the 20th century, but I agree there has been a post-pandemic upshift.

e: found some news articles https://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/california-catalytic-...

this trend is after they busted a billion dollar auto parts company for being heavily involved in fencing these parts, seized 500 million dollars, and other anti-fencing provisions were made

Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#302

Post by glitchc » Wed, Feb 21, 2024, 4:49 PM UTC

I've always disliked keyfobs. They felt like an insecure replacement for keys, especially after so much effort went into tumblers and other security measures designed to prevent hot-wiring. It's extremely difficult if not impossible to hot-wire a modern car. And yet we throw all of that innovation away for what, convenience?

Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#303

Post by [deleted] » Wed, Feb 21, 2024, 4:49 PM UTC

blitzar wrote: post #256

swozey wrote: post #213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I will never, ever keep a car I care about outside anywhere near the city. I know everyone doesn't have the funds for that, but I'm sorry, we all know how rampant car thefts have gotten since before those 3 Q50s in this video were even purchased. I live in the busiest neighborhood in downtown Denver with which has rampant property theft, cats cut out etc non-stop. I own 2 vehicles and neither of them are ever parked…

> I know everyone doesn't have the funds for that Its actually a fair bit cheaper to buy a $25k car than a $250k car.

[deleted]

Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#304

Post by flanbiscuit » Wed, Feb 21, 2024, 4:49 PM UTC

My car has keyless entry but does not have the push button to start. You still need to put in the physical key and turn the ignition. My car has been broken into but without damage. They rummaged through stuff and took some random things but we keep nothing of value in the car. I'm not sure how they broke in but I've seen videos[1] online on how a tow service can get your car door open using an air-wedge. Maybe they did that, maybe they used something that repeated the key fob signal, not sure. But I'm glad that my car still needs a physical key. I'm not looking forward to the day when I need to get a new car and all that is available is keyless start. I'd happily go back to needing a key for everything, even the doors.

1. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nEMzTDiXC6A

Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#305

Post by newaccount7g » Wed, Feb 21, 2024, 4:50 PM UTC

keiferski wrote: post #98

Philosophy warning: I don't know if there is a term for it, or if a philosopher/etc. has written about this phenomenon, but: a noticeable trend to me is what I'll call "the replacement of ethical expectations with specific, written down laws." Rather than expecting a human being to behave in certain ways intrinsically (i.e., normative ethics ) we tend to assume they will behave in the worst way possible, and then pas…

Really this a good IQ test for people. If you think anyone will be negatively affected by this you have a low IQ. If you can see this just a ploy to raise awareness of the Flipper Zero you have average intelligence. We get a “product is being made illegal OMG!” post every single hour on this site. Use context clues

Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#306

Post by gnarbarian » Wed, Feb 21, 2024, 4:50 PM UTC

RandomLensman wrote: post #202

keiferski wrote: post #98

Philosophy warning: I don't know if there is a term for it, or if a philosopher/etc. has written about this phenomenon, but: a noticeable trend to me is what I'll call "the replacement of ethical expectations with specific, written down laws." Rather than expecting a human being to behave in certain ways intrinsically (i.e., normative ethics ) we tend to assume they will behave in the worst way possible, and then pas…

Why put all Western countries into the same bucket? Car theft is much more prevalent in the US than Germany, for example.

Which country is more diverse culturally? the answer to that feeds directly into op's argument.

Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#307

Post by kube-system » Wed, Feb 21, 2024, 4:51 PM UTC

acdha wrote: post #290

kube-system wrote: post #251

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To do that, we'd probably need to accept one of these as a consequence: 1. all cars must be internet connected so they can pull CRLs 2. dealers and locksmiths are no longer able to replace keys, you will have to ship the car back to the manufacturer if you lose your keys. Because there's no secure way to hand out the root cert to the thousands of organizations authorized to replace keys today.

The situation doesn’t need to be as strict as #2: you could have a way for a registered service shop to get a per-device rekey by shifting some liability to them. Making it per device prevents bulk usage and an active communication with the manufacturer would mean the cops could ask the owners of a shady auto shop some questions when 80% of the stolen cars in the area are being rekeyed at a place the owners have neve…

I don't think that the dealer equipment being used to steal cars today is coming from dealers where management is knowingly engaging in car theft. It is other people who are misusing those tools. There are many hundreds of thousands of people who work at dealerships, and many do not care about their employers reputation. Also, many dealerships are broken into.

Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#308

Post by keiferski » Wed, Feb 21, 2024, 4:51 PM UTC

AndrewKemendo wrote: post #298

keiferski wrote: post #98

Philosophy warning: I don't know if there is a term for it, or if a philosopher/etc. has written about this phenomenon, but: a noticeable trend to me is what I'll call "the replacement of ethical expectations with specific, written down laws." Rather than expecting a human being to behave in certain ways intrinsically (i.e., normative ethics ) we tend to assume they will behave in the worst way possible, and then pas…

You just described the “rule of law” and this is the basis for how modern governments are formed and function A constitution is written and codifies the process for making ratifying and enforcing laws. That then is the common standard for some subset of behaviors as defined by the constitution which defines who it does and does not apply to. Different constitutions outline different processes but the structure of the…

That's an interesting thought, but I would say instead that I'm in favor of culture being the "first line of defense" and not the law. In other words, I can leave my door unlocked because I am a part of a culture where that sort of thing doesn't happen. Not because there is a law written down somewhere. This has functionally been my experience in a number of spaces, including private workspaces (i.e., you don't expect your co-workers to steal your stuff), Japan, Poland, and a few other countries, and many others.

If that's a definition of "common law" then sure, but it seems like a different thing to me.

Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#309

Post by cubefox » Wed, Feb 21, 2024, 4:53 PM UTC

There is a real danger of "victim blaming" here. A similar thing occurred recently for the South Korean car makers Kia and Hyundai, which experienced soaring car thefts in the US due to relatively low car security standards and the high US crime rate. Some US American journalists, politicians [0] and judges [1] blamed the car makers for the steeply rising car thefts.

However, these manufacturers come from a country where there are much fewer car thefts than in the US and where these cars didn't cause a comparable theft problem. The people blaming Kia and Hyundai would have been well-advised to identify at least as a major part of the problem the US-specific crime rate, not just the South Korean car manufacturers which weren't sufficiently adapted to to this crime.

It's kind of similar to a young naive woman from South Korea doing her vacation in the US, and walking home at night, alone through a dark park in a shady neighborhood. A thing she could expect to safely do in South Korea. But in the US, the worst thing happens. Who is to blame? The women may bear some part of the responsibility by wrongly assuming the US is as safe as South Korea. But I think it's clear the main fault lies with the US criminals, not the victim.

People easily get used to things like that and don't notice it. Until they travel to a country where very different things are normal, and get a culture shock.

[0] https://www.cbsnews.com/amp/news/hyundai-kia-stolen-car-thef...

[1] https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/hyunda...

Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#310

Post by zaphar » Wed, Feb 21, 2024, 4:53 PM UTC

AndrewKemendo wrote: post #298

keiferski wrote: post #98

Philosophy warning: I don't know if there is a term for it, or if a philosopher/etc. has written about this phenomenon, but: a noticeable trend to me is what I'll call "the replacement of ethical expectations with specific, written down laws." Rather than expecting a human being to behave in certain ways intrinsically (i.e., normative ethics ) we tend to assume they will behave in the worst way possible, and then pas…

You just described the “rule of law” and this is the basis for how modern governments are formed and function A constitution is written and codifies the process for making ratifying and enforcing laws. That then is the common standard for some subset of behaviors as defined by the constitution which defines who it does and does not apply to. Different constitutions outline different processes but the structure of the…

I think what he actually described is why the rule of law is not a replacement for a good ethical framework that is shared culturally.

I didn't read his post as advocating for no laws or replacing the legal framework. I read it as advocating for rebuilding a shared ethical framework for the culture.