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Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

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Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#271

Post by ytx »

sidewndr46 wrote: post #77
eli wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These cars are being sold with defective security measures. They don't work the way manufactures promise or customers expect. It shouldn't be any different than a car sold with headlights that are too dim

But that is my point. All security measures are defective. I can always tie a chain to your vehicle and leave with it. Security measures deter criminals, they can never stop them. Only the government can do that. The government is not obliged to do that in the US. Thus, no one can stop criminals To metaphorically put it: no matter how good your 2FA is, I can always get around it if I can torture you or threaten your…

> Security measures deter criminals, they can never stop them.

Right, but in practice deterrence and incentives can be much more effective (from a cost and practical standpoint). I imagine the government would have a much harder time stopping people from randomly chaining vehicles than tracking stolen ones. There just doesn't happen to much incentive for the former.

Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#272

Post by unethical_ban »

keiferski wrote: post #162
aidenn0 wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Rather than expecting a human being to behave in certain ways intrinsically (i.e., normative ethics) we tend to assume they will behave in the worst way possible, and then pass laws to supposedly prevent that behavior from manifesting. This is a necessary consequence of civilization. If you have a city of 8 million people, then you have 80,000 people in the bottom percentile of behavior by normative ethics. If some…

Sure, but it seems like enforce these ethical behaviors and punish the bottom 1% that goes against them is just as much of a solution as redesign society and the environment so that everyone can't act like that 1%.

You seem to suggest that parents and schools are not teaching ethical behavior.

Do you think this is happening at a large scale?

I know some leftists (I'm liberal) who don't seem to care about minor theft or crime because it seems like peanuts next to the civilization-wrecking greed and pollution and wealth transfer underway by the owners of capital.

But I don't think that is a majority thought. I personally think the criminal justice system has decided they either won't do their jobs, or that they are so understaffed that they can't do their job of investigating and punishing crime.

Again, my take is that most people of all political stripes want crime to be punished.

Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#273

Post by RegnisGnaw »

whimsicalism wrote: post #241
RegnisGnaw wrote: post #230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

B.C. is no where as special as Quebec. The province of B.C. has never held a referendum to split. It does not have a special language police. Nor does it call itself a country :)

I’m talking about the organized crime problem, not the thing you brought up. BC has a problem with organized crime in its ports.

Ahh okay, yeah. Its easier for the federal government to deal with in B.C. (ports are federal jurisdiction in Canada) without the political sensitivity problem.

Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#274

Post by lotsofpulp »

InitialLastName wrote: post #73
stainablesteel wrote: post #35

how are major car manufacturers so far behind in security? and why can't they go back to the old solutions that didn't have these problems? its just such a stupid thing to watch IF these fancy keys that let you start your car without inserting anything cause your car to become extremely vulnerable THEN maybe its a bad idea, jesus christ

Because whenever it's even vaguely cold outside, my neighbor likes to be able to start and idle her giant truck in her driveway without leaving her house (for 40 minutes before she drives a mile to work).

Remote start is not to blame here. A manufacturer installed remote start system will shut the car off if a door opens. And the car should also shut off automatically after 5 to 10 minutes.

Unfortunately, after market remote starter does not offer this capability, so with the new trend of monthly charges, if you like certain brands like Toyota, and you want that type of secure remote start, you have to pay $20 per month or more for the life of the car.

Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#275

Post by HeyLaughingBoy »

Levitz wrote: post #146
newsclues wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cars are computers now. What do we know about computer security and physical access? If I can touch the machine, I can hack and own it. No level of technology will stop this. But cutting off the profit motive by making it very hard to export cars will have a massive impact on these crimes, and for old and new cars.

The level of technology that stops this is cars not being computers. Every piece of tech has tradeoffs, and for cars this one is just not worth it.

What are you proposing? That we go back to being able to turn the ignition switch with a screwdriver?

Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#276

Post by mhh__ »

keiferski wrote: post #98

Philosophy warning: I don't know if there is a term for it, or if a philosopher/etc. has written about this phenomenon, but: a noticeable trend to me is what I'll call "the replacement of ethical expectations with specific, written down laws." Rather than expecting a human being to behave in certain ways intrinsically (i.e., normative ethics ) we tend to assume they will behave in the worst way possible, and then pas…

McGilchrist on left vs right brain will interest you.

Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#278

Post by acdha »

newsclues wrote: post #167
acdha wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What do we know about computer security and physical access? If I can touch the machine, I can hack and own it. It’s not the 2000s any more. Even national security agencies have trouble with phone decryption, and that suggests a path forward for cars using a tamper-resistant secure element since car thieves won’t spend more money attacking something than they can resell it for. Cars need service regularly you can h…

They get exported overseas and any technology lock or security device gets ripped out and replaced. This isn’t about extracting encrypted data, but bypassing systems to start a car.

Yes, because the current design is lax. Now think about what happens if the engine computer won’t start with a bad signature or the entertainment system won’t work. How would that affect the overseas market?

Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#279

Post by jcims »

keiferski wrote: post #98

Philosophy warning: I don't know if there is a term for it, or if a philosopher/etc. has written about this phenomenon, but: a noticeable trend to me is what I'll call "the replacement of ethical expectations with specific, written down laws." Rather than expecting a human being to behave in certain ways intrinsically (i.e., normative ethics ) we tend to assume they will behave in the worst way possible, and then pas…

The same phenomenon can apply to organizations as well. Teachers and doctors in the US, for example, seem to have lost a substantial degree of discretion in how ply their respective trades. They instead must operate in compliance with an ever-growing number of runbooks prescribed to them by their relative authorities.

This is likely driven in part to raise the floor in outcomes but it simultaneously lowers the ceiling.

Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero

#280

Post by gnarbarian »

keiferski wrote: post #98

Philosophy warning: I don't know if there is a term for it, or if a philosopher/etc. has written about this phenomenon, but: a noticeable trend to me is what I'll call "the replacement of ethical expectations with specific, written down laws." Rather than expecting a human being to behave in certain ways intrinsically (i.e., normative ethics ) we tend to assume they will behave in the worst way possible, and then pas…

postulate: the less people share culturally/ideologically/morally with their countrymen the more numerous and specific (micromanaged) the laws will become. this is a direct result of people not being able to navigate or predict expectations, or empathize with each other.
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