Stop computerizing vehicles. Computerized vehicles are so bad in so many ways.
Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero
171–180 of 916 posts
Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero
#172Earlier quoted context omitted.
> What do we know about computer security and physical access? If I can touch the machine, I can hack and own it. Can you hack and own my fully patched Pixel phone? Or my GF's iPhone? Sure, sophisticated state-sponsored actors can sometimes do it by burning several million dollars worth of 0days in the process, but some two-digit IQ riff-raffs? Probably not so much. EDIT: just to be clear - by "two-digit IQ riff-raff…
Phone thieves will watch over peoples shoulders for them to input a passcode, which isn't that dissimilar to a lot of the replay/signal extension attacks. A lot of damage can be done and things successfully owned without needing to hack or exploit the device (car/phone).
> Phone thieves will watch over peoples shoulders for them to input a passcode, which isn't that dissimilar to a lot of the replay/signal extension attacks.
You have any reference regarding how prevalent that is? Everyone I know switched to biometrics a decade ago.
Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero
#173Earlier quoted context omitted.
The obvious answer would be to harshly punish theft via jail time/etc., but that's sort of not my point, and I don't think that's actually the root issue. Because it's more that stealing cars is apparently an acceptable activity for a lot of people to do. By acceptable , I mean socially, to friends, to family members, to themselves. That seems like a major societal failing to me, much moreso than "this car isn't desi…
I get that, but given the observed existence of a subset of the population where this is currently acceptable, what does "enforcing [] religious or ethical norms" to fix the problem look like? I agree with you there's a societal or communal failure here. I don't see what the solution is (other than jail time/etc).
My immediate answer is to say something like "we need more ethical education" but that's obviously kind of a weak response. The long, slow answer might be that society may re-organize itself into sub-units that do enforce ethical behaviors, and those sub-units eventually prevail over those that don't.
Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero
#174Philosophy warning: I don't know if there is a term for it, or if a philosopher/etc. has written about this phenomenon, but: a noticeable trend to me is what I'll call "the replacement of ethical expectations with specific, written down laws." Rather than expecting a human being to behave in certain ways intrinsically (i.e., normative ethics ) we tend to assume they will behave in the worst way possible, and then pas…
You see the exact same thing in programming, where tooling is made to enforce everything because somehow we can't trust devs to do anything right so we need to hard-wire as many restraints in as possible.
And yet, somehow, that hasn't solved the Software Problem at all.
Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero
#175Earlier quoted context omitted.
Fix the cars. A brand new $60,000 car shouldn’t be so simple to swipe. They probably spent less time stealing my neighbors car than he did waiting on the credit check to buy the car lol… it’s crazy these days with cars.
Cars are computers now. What do we know about computer security and physical access? If I can touch the machine, I can hack and own it. No level of technology will stop this. But cutting off the profit motive by making it very hard to export cars will have a massive impact on these crimes, and for old and new cars.
> No level of technology will stop this.
Why does no one steal Teslas?
Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero
#176Earlier quoted context omitted.
Cars are computers now. What do we know about computer security and physical access? If I can touch the machine, I can hack and own it. No level of technology will stop this. But cutting off the profit motive by making it very hard to export cars will have a massive impact on these crimes, and for old and new cars.
> What do we know about computer security and physical access? If I can touch the machine, I can hack and own it. Can you hack and own my fully patched Pixel phone? Or my GF's iPhone? Sure, sophisticated state-sponsored actors can sometimes do it by burning several million dollars worth of 0days in the process, but some two-digit IQ riff-raffs? Probably not so much. EDIT: just to be clear - by "two-digit IQ riff-raff…
This is done by organized crime with engineers on staff. Sure it’s drug addicts stealing cars but the people shipping them are smart and have access to capital.
Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero
#177Philosophy warning: I don't know if there is a term for it, or if a philosopher/etc. has written about this phenomenon, but: a noticeable trend to me is what I'll call "the replacement of ethical expectations with specific, written down laws." Rather than expecting a human being to behave in certain ways intrinsically (i.e., normative ethics ) we tend to assume they will behave in the worst way possible, and then pas…
That may be a slight oversimplification? I think there's whole fields dedicated to these questions, like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophy_of_law?wprov=sfla1 or the overarching https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethics?wprov=sfla1 , with overlaps into sociology and anthropology. Not all societies are so law-heavy, especially the ones that are more shame-driven: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guilt%E2%80%93shame%E2%8…
Yes I think the shame and guilt discussion is probably relevant here. Although Japan has a shame culture, and the West supposedly has a guilt-based one, I'm not convinced that guilt is all that widespread anymore.
Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero
#178Earlier quoted context omitted.
> religious or ethical norms Truly confused why `religious` norms come into play here.
Because the modern Western world is in a "religion hangover" where it wants to reject all outwardly religious ideas, while simultaneously denying that a) religions have been the foundation of pretty much all ethical behavior since the beginning of civilization and b) many supposedly secular belief systems are really just extensions of religious ones with the "I believe in..." statement cut off.
> religions have been the foundation of pretty much all ethical behavior since the beginning of civilization
I reject this statement wholeheartedly, and find it a pretty disgusting stance. The idea that the only reason not to kill someone (or otherwise act ethically) is due to religion is horrendous, especially given most religions historical track record on murdering others and other ethical violations.
Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero
#179Philosophy warning: I don't know if there is a term for it, or if a philosopher/etc. has written about this phenomenon, but: a noticeable trend to me is what I'll call "the replacement of ethical expectations with specific, written down laws." Rather than expecting a human being to behave in certain ways intrinsically (i.e., normative ethics ) we tend to assume they will behave in the worst way possible, and then pas…
Sounds like the idea of "obedience to the unenforceable" - the unwritten rules of society that we comply by personal choice. This Econtalk episode has a nice discussion about it - https://www.econtalk.org/michael-munger-on-obedience-to-the-...
Re: Insecure vehicles should be banned, not security tools like the Flipper Zero
#180Earlier quoted context omitted.
Guns can be made DIY, but laws still mitigate.
There is a big difference in putting together deadly artifacts and electronic devices you can fabricate using off-the-shelf chips and open protocols. Not saying you can't discuss regulating them, but to me they are in a different set of categories. Weapons are by default dangerous, their sole purpose being to cause physical harm, while a flipper zero can be used for instructional purposes and research. As much as I h…
> but a weapon can't be in any imaginable circumstance reachable by anyone untrained.
I agree with your main point that the FZ is easily reproduced. I think you miss the mark with this one. Firearms are easily made at home with simple tools and off-the-shelf materials. For example, the United States has a rich tradition of home-made firearms. To provide a concrete example, a shotgun can be made with a length of steel plumbing pipe, electrical tape, a nail, and a cap. Yes, it's that simple.