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Russia is persecuting dissenters by taking away their children

economist.com

131–140 of 381 posts

Re: Russia is persecuting dissenters by taking away their children

#131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also, most european countries don't allow russian¹² refugees anymore, and traveling by plane into western countries is impossible for (non-oligarch-level-wealthy) russians. ¹ germany: https://www.proasyl.de/en/news/germany-federal-office-for-mi... ² finland: https://thebarentsobserver.com/ru/node/189

I think you can easily fly to turkey and then anywhere else. Would not even be that expensive to get from istanbul to sofia.. With regards to visa some friends applied for student visa and that seems to work quite ok.

> Would not even be that expensive

Let me remind everyone reading this that a "typical" salary in Russia is 30-40k rubles per month. They don't publish the median, and the mean is absolutely useless. This will maybe buy you a one-way ticket to a neighboring country, but how are you going to survive afterwards?

Re: Russia is persecuting dissenters by taking away their children

#132
post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Belarus is a Russian puppet-state under Lukashenko.

The authoritarianism in Belarus is entirely domestic in origin and predates the modern Russian one.

That's true but it still is a Russian puppet state at present.

Re: Russia is persecuting dissenters by taking away their children

#133

Russians have never had any real individual rights. Throughout their history the common people have just been resources enslaved to brutal overlords. The Soviets were perhaps somewhat softer overlords on average, but the principle remains. The state will dispose of disobedient people the same way it would dispose of rotten potatoes. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f8ZqBLcIvw0

That's how majority of the world lives though.

Re: Russia is persecuting dissenters by taking away their children

#134
post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The article says he was investigated only after his daughter drew a picture in class. So it probably wasn't particularly planned. And then he fled to Belarus once he got wind of the charges.

Is vehemently disowning the art piece not enough to avoid jail or is it to the point where they’re jailing people for any excuse at all?

If you're trying to solidify a regime of judicial terror, I would expect these kinds of cases would be pure gold. The fact that something as benign as a child's drawing couldn't be explained away would amplify the fear and force people to be more aggressive about policing their own thoughts: if the police can find out about a random kid's drawing, they'll definitely discover anything you do that's more than that. Among other things, it gives the state's security forces (and at this point, you can stick the Russian judiciary in that category) the impression of greater power and reach, which also makes people more likely to denounce others.

During World War 2, public perception of the Gestapo always exceeded its actual effective capabilities (at least in terms of agents watching random people and informers at every table) which was a huge part of why people were so willing to inform. Nearly all of the postcards written by Otto and Elise Hampel[0] were turned into the Gestapo by the people who found them, for example. One would expect at least some of the people to toss them in the trash to avoid any risk of entanglement, unless they were more worried about getting caught not turning them in. Richard J. Evans briefly touches on the subject in his Third Reich in Power book:

> [...] What counted was not whether or not there really were informers everywhere, but the fact that people thought there were. The disillusioned writer and journalist Friedrich Reck-Malleczewen recorded his friends’ and his own hatred of Hitler in the privacy of his diary and wondered on 9 September 1937 if anyone outside Germany had ‘any idea of how completely without legal status we are, of what it is to be threatened with denunciation at any

What's really surreal is that even the Gestapo itself realized very early in the regime just how screwed-up the system, not that they ever tried to fix things:

> [...] So many denunciations were sent in to the Gestapo that even fanatical leading Nazis such as Reinhard Heydrich complained about them and the district Gestapo office in Saarbrücken itself registered its alarm at the ‘constant expansion of an appalling system of denunciation’. What dismayed them was in particular the fact that many denunciations appeared to be made from personal rather than ideological motives. [...]

Basically, build up enough fear and you'll influence the population to do police and surveil itself; possibly to a level that even the state itself thinks is excessive and problematic. Returning to the original subject, it's not unsurprising to see Russia to extend its crackdowns to even more absurd cases. The Nazis did the same thing as it became clear they were losing the war, with executions for treason skyrocketing for even the most mundane activities and jokes.

When things are going wrong, authoritarian regimes take it out on their citizens in the hopes that if they just use a strict enough hand against them, they'll somehow cause something to change. Russia isn't in anywhere near as dire straits as Nazi Germany was, obviously, but the same basic impulse is always there.

0. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Otto_and_Elise_Hampel

Re: Russia is persecuting dissenters by taking away their children

#135
post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What kind of explanation are you seeking? In this case, I am wondering if a culture other than the present would lead to different outcomes, and specifically wondering if there are significant after-effects of the long-ago Mongol domination. Of course it's near impossible to answer this with any scientific rigor, and I don't have much hope for it :) It seems that the communist takeover in 1918 was not an obvious "d…

Ah. I’m not a dedicated Russian scholar, but the big themes to me seem to be: - Relative cultural isolation of Russia, with the exception of the major cities nearer to Europe. I’d speculate this is partially due to few international trade routes. - A brutally tough existence, largely due to the climate, economic systems, and over-investment in war. - No transformational economic gains from territorial gains. The US C…

I asked ChatGPT 4.0 this:

——-

Let’s talk about the history of Russia. What factors contribute to the county’s “capture” by oligarchs? Why can’t the people topple the autocrats and get something better?

Please respond to my thoughts below. Correct me as needed. Offer contrasting views as appropriate. Agree if I get it right.

{I pasted my comment from above.}

——-

ChatGPT 4.0 responded with:

——-

Your analysis of Russia's history and the factors contributing to its capture by oligarchs is generally on the right track. I will elaborate on some of your points and provide additional perspectives.

Relative cultural isolation: While Russia's geographical location might have limited its interaction with the West, Russia has had a long history of cultural exchange with its neighbors in Asia and Eastern Europe. However, the isolationist policies of certain historical periods, such as during the Soviet era, contributed to this sense of cultural isolation.

Brutally tough existence: The harsh climate and economic systems have indeed played a role in shaping Russia's history. The centralized nature of the Soviet economy and the heavy emphasis on industrialization and military power at the expense of consumer goods and social welfare further exacerbated these issues.

No transformational economic gains from territorial gains: While Russia may not have experienced the same economic benefits as the United States did from territorial expansion, it did gain access to valuable resources and extended its geopolitical influence throughout Eurasia.

Systemic repression: Autocratic rule and repression have been recurring themes in Russian history, with leaders like Ivan the Terrible, Peter the Great, Joseph Stalin, and Vladimir Putin consolidating power and suppressing dissent.

Few alternative centers of power: The Russian Orthodox Church has historically been an influential force in Russian society, but it has often been closely aligned with the state, which limited its potential as an alternative center of power. Furthermore, the state has generally suppressed or co-opted other potential sources of power, such as independent media and civil society organizations.

High levels of distrust: The long history of autocratic rule and government surveillance has contributed to a culture of distrust in Russia. This makes it difficult for democratic movements to gain traction and for people to openly challenge the ruling elite.

Low probability of aspirational leaders: The concentration of power and repression of opposition make it difficult for transformative leaders to emerge within Russia. Even if an exiled leader were to build a reputation abroad, they would likely face significant obstacles upon returning to Russia, including potential arrest or assassination.

Regarding the Mongol influence, the Mongol Empire ruled over Russia in the form of the Golden Horde from the mid-13th century to the late 15th century. While the Mongol rule was oppressive and destructive, it also had lasting effects on Russian society and governance. The Mongols introduced new administrative and taxation systems, and their rule contributed to the centralization of power in Moscow. The legacy of the Mongol rule may have also influenced the development of autocratic rule in Russia, as Russian leaders sought to emulate the highly centralized and powerful systems of their former conquerors.

——-

What other points would you add?

Also, contrast Russia with other countries in similar positions?

——-

In addition to the points previously mentioned, the following factors have also played a role in shaping Russia's political and social landscape:

Ethnic and linguistic diversity: Russia is a vast country that spans multiple time zones and is home to over 190 different ethnic groups. This diversity has sometimes fueled tensions and has presented challenges to the central government in terms of maintaining unity and control.

Historical external threats: Throughout its history, Russia has faced various external threats, including invasions by the Mongols, Napoleon, and Hitler. These events have contributed to a national narrative of vulnerability and a desire for strong, centralized leadership to protect the country.

The Soviet legacy: The Soviet Union's collapse in 1991 had a profound impact on Russia's political, economic, and social fabric. The transition from a centrally planned economy to a market-based system led to widespread economic hardship, inequality, and the rise of the oligarchs. Additionally, the disillusionment with the failures of the Soviet system may have contributed to the public's skepticism of democratic institutions and processes.

When comparing Russia to other countries in similar positions, we can look at:

China: Like Russia, China has a long history of autocratic rule and a highly centralized political system. Both countries have experienced periods of isolation from the West and have pursued aggressive foreign policies in response to perceived threats. However, China's economic transformation and integration into the global market have led to more prosperity and stability than Russia has experienced in recent decades.

Ukraine: As a former Soviet republic, Ukraine has faced similar challenges in transitioning to a market economy and building democratic institutions. Ukraine has also struggled with corruption and oligarchic control, but unlike Russia, it has experienced a series of popular uprisings (such as the Orange Revolution in 2004 and the Euromaidan protests in 2014) that have led to changes in government and ongoing efforts to reform its political system.

Turkey: Turkey is another example of a country with a history of autocratic rule and a strong centralized government. While Turkey has experienced periods of democratization and integration with the West, its current political climate under President Recep Tayyip Erdoğan has seen a return to more authoritarian practices, similar to those in Russia.

These comparisons show that while Russia shares some commonalities with other countries facing similar challenges, its unique historical context, geography, and cultural factors have shaped its distinct trajectory.

Re: Russia is persecuting dissenters by taking away their children

#136
post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First and foremost it was the russians who supported their government. russians were silent during Chechnya, during the Yukos case, after Putin's comments on Kursk widows, after killing of Politkovskaya, Nemtsov, and so on and so on. Look at any russian popular media in early 2000s and you will see a huge amount of really casual racism, with "Brat 2" being the pinnacle. Nobody spoke out against it. Just because they…

I am not going to engage with someone who is so bent on his hatred that he's is willing to subvert the rules of the English grammar to show it, but let it be noted that it has been impossible to protest in Russia since around 2004 or so. None of what you're describing stopped the West from pouring insane amounts of money into Putin's military and repression apparatus. Oh, the irony. My relatives over there had it rea…

Nobody is responsible for the state of Russia other than the Russians.

Re: Russia is persecuting dissenters by taking away their children

#137
I don't think he's an immediate threat to society or his daughter and hence don't support the imprisonment.

The portrait painted by the Economist is, however, incomplete. I guess because the details are not pretty. Mr. Moskalyov was convicted three times before this trial (but haven't served any jail time):

- in 1984 for theft

- in 2004 for (illegal) imprisonment without kidnapping

- in 2008 for violating production/transport safety regulations

Apparently he's also not paying utilities/taxes and have no legal sources of income -- he's growing and selling exotic animals but that's off the books.

Feel sorry for the kid the most...

Re: Russia is persecuting dissenters by taking away their children

#139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Regular people receiving sentences of 7 years in colonies for anti-war posts or statements well apart from the from the article on which you are commenitng, you can read this https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2023/03/russia-studen... > At the same time - convicted murderers are freed to volunteer to fight against Ukraine and are given state honors e.g. https://www.nytimes.com/2023/03/26/world/europe/wagner-fig…

Legally there is no penalty for being against the war or against the government. Actually it is the opposite - calling for war or helping to start it might be illegal. The law punishes for spreading falseful information or discrediting use of armed forces in interests of Russia. For example, for falsefully claiming that special military operation against West-supported neo-nazis preparing an attack against Russia is…

> For example, for falsefully claiming that special military operation against West-supported neo-nazis preparing an attack against Russia is actually a war or that army allegedly attacks civilian buildings and infrastructure.

Spotted: A true patriot repeating all the talking points from his lying government.

Re: Russia is persecuting dissenters by taking away their children

#140
post #126

Nothing new. Family from Eastern Europe had to deal with this bs with communism. It was always the fear of neighbors “ratting you out” made everyone paranoid. You had to be on board or risked being “taken away.”

Indeed. The fear was sometimes voiced as being afraid of people 'taking names' with future consequences.
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