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Myocarditis after Covid vaccination: Research on possible long-term risks begins

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Re: Myocarditis after Covid vaccination: Research on possible long-term risks begins

#291

Post by paul »

jjcon wrote: post #230
nomel wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It became political, causing FDA heads to resign [1] after threats [2]. And now, the latest booster was approved with no human trials at all [3]. 1. https://www.businessinsider.com/2-top-fda-officials-resigned... 2. https://www.cnbc.com/2020/12/11/white-house-threatens-to-fir... 3. https://www.health.com/news/new-covid-boosters-human-testing...

Flu shots don't require human trials either, should covid be all that different (genuine question) if so why?

It’s both a novel virus and a novel vaccine. Without clinical trials we really don’t know if the boosters are helping or hurting.

Also, we should be doing clinical trials on flu shots as well. New drugs, even if they are only slightly different still require clinical trials. Why is hacking the immune system not subject to the same scrutiny?

Re: Myocarditis after Covid vaccination: Research on possible long-term risks begins

#292

Post by ifyoubuildit »

floor2 wrote: post #209
nomel wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With the media black out of anything anti-pro-vaccine, it’s not surprising that natural immunity provides better protection isn’t more well known: https://www.science.org/content/article/having-sars-cov-2-on...

This argument has never made any sense. It's literal survivorship bias https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Survivorship_bias You're saying "If you survive getting covid without serious injuries once, then you'll be less likely to get serious injuries on a re-infection later". The vaccine is to make it less likely that you get serious injuries from that first exposure.

Are there any people left that haven't had their first exposure?

The argument makes more sense when you take into account that the interesting case is actually "given that you've already had covid, should you get vaccinated?" rather than "given no exposures yet, should I make out with someone that has it or should I get vaccinated". I've seen a lot of noise about the latter case, and a lot of overlooking the former.

Re: Myocarditis after Covid vaccination: Research on possible long-term risks begins

#293

Post by lamontcg »

cerradokids wrote: post #257
oezi wrote: post #241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The risk from myocarditis from getting Covid-19 is higher than getting it from the vaccine. The decision to vaccinate even young people made sense during the height of the pandemic and it doesn't make so much sense now anymore.

Where did you get that data? According to this study https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/35456309/ there is no increase in Myocarditis cases among unvaccinated people who have contracted Covid-19. This study tracked 196,992 people which is a huge number, so the data here is quite good and clear. Contracting Covid-19 does not put you at increased risk for Myocarditis, the same cannot be said when evaluating a population t…

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41591-021-01630-0)

> We estimated extra myocarditis events to be between 1 and 10 per million persons in the month following vaccination, which was substantially lower than the 40 extra events per million persons observed following SARS-CoV-2 infection.

and they include a brief literature review:

> Our findings are consistent with those from a case-control study of 884,828 persons receiving the BNT162b2 vaccine in Israel21. That study observed an association with myocarditis in the 42 days following vaccination (risk ratio of 3.24), but no association with pericarditis or cardiac arrhythmia. Two further studies from Israel add to our observations by providing clinical review to ensure robust case ascertainment22 and reporting investigations and outcomes in individual patients with myocarditis following the BNT162b2 vaccine23. Witberg et al.21,22 observed a small excess in events 3–5 days following the second dose of BNT162b2 vaccine, but most were mild presentations and just one classified as fulminant22. Mevorach et al. observed an incidence ratio of 5.34 for myocarditis in 5,442,696 persons following BNT162b2, although this was attenuated when restricted to the 136 definite and probable cases of myocarditis23. Risk of myocarditis was restricted to males under the age of 40 years and only observed following the second dose. Similarly, two studies from the United States have reported an incident rate ratio of 2.7 for myocarditis in the 10 days following the second dose of both mRNA vaccines24 and an estimated 6.3 and 10.1 extra cases per million doses in the 1- to 21-day period following the first and second dose of both mRNA vaccines, respectively, in those younger than 40 years25.

And conclude:

> In summary, this population-based study quantifies for the first time the risk of several rare cardiac adverse events associated with three COVID-19 vaccines as well as SARS-CoV-2 infection. Vaccination for SARS-CoV-2 in adults was associated with a small increase in the risk of myocarditis within a week of receiving the first dose of both adenovirus and mRNA vaccines, and after the second dose of both mRNA vaccines. By contrast, SARS-CoV-2 infection was associated with a substantial increase in the risk of hospitalization or death from myocarditis, pericarditis and cardiac arrhythmia.

Re: Myocarditis after Covid vaccination: Research on possible long-term risks begins

#294

Post by Izkata »

no_butterscotch wrote: post #181
enragedcacti wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not the OP but: Covid definitely isn't over, it's just that we've gotten better at treating it and people have decided that they are over it. It is still killing almost 2000 people a week in the US and it's very possible that we will see a huge spike in that as we get further into winter. the "next" booster is referring to the updated vaccine that more effectively targets the dominant "Omicron" variant.

> the "next" booster is referring to the updated vaccine that more effectively targets the dominant "Omicron" variant. Ah thanks for the context. I've only gotten the J&J vax (the worst one?) back in April of 2021, no boosters. I considered getting one but by then they were recommending boosters every few months and I decided to just "risk" it by not getting them? (I'm in my 30s and in good shape/health so don't feel…

> I've only gotten the J&J vax (the worst one?)

Back in those first few months I was keeping an eye on reports of side-effects, and J&J actually looked like the safest of the 4 available in the US. But it and AstraZeneca got absolutely vilified while any claims against Pfizer and Moderna got ignored as crazy conspiracies.

Re: Myocarditis after Covid vaccination: Research on possible long-term risks begins

#295

Post by sfusato »

jjcon wrote: post #278
sfusato wrote: post #275

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is that counting the 1st booster? These policy changes came after the 1st booster.

> Is that counting the 1st booster? These policy changes came after the 1st booster. Yes it is counting any booster after primary 2 doses - which policy changes specifically? Most of these countries have been relatively consistent in their approach to boosters.

They stopped recommending further boosters to younger people after the 1st booster. These 50+ or 65+ only recommendations are rather recent. That's all I'm saying. You would need to account only from the 2nd booster onwards basically.

Re: Myocarditis after Covid vaccination: Research on possible long-term risks begins

#296

Post by HarryHirsch »

ceejayoz wrote: post #260
Rebelgecko wrote: post #253

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So it sounds like Obamacare did cover the vast majority of the cost?

Yes. People just don't understand what their plan's deductibles mean, and the protections the ACA offers. The parent poster likely benefits from the following items on https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Affordable_Care_Act : > Annual and lifetime coverage caps on essential benefits were banned. > Insurers are forbidden from dropping policyholders when they become ill. > All policies must provide an annual maximum out-of-p…

The problem field is slighty different: if your income is constrained and you are generally in good health you are going to choose a low premium plan with consequent higher deductible. When it's your turn to end up in hospital you get to pay up to the (substantial for you) out-of-pocket limit, even though you belong to the demographic that cannot afford it and Obamacare was sold to you as making healthcare affordable and accessible.

Obama was a sellout.

Re: Myocarditis after Covid vaccination: Research on possible long-term risks begins

#297

Post by ckw »

xracy wrote: post #164
spfzero wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It also seems like, in the absence of assurance of long-term safety, you would recommend the vaccine for at-risk groups only. It's known now that the risk to young people (under 19) is minimal: IFR < 3/1,000,000. And that was during the much more dangerous early strain of Covid-19, not the ones circulating now. Yet here we are in 2022 with a recommendation from the CDC to vaccinate ages 5 and up, regardless of health…

It is wild to me that people look at a number like 3/1,000,000 and don't think wow, that's 1900 Children who could die from something we have a vaccine for, that actively prevents the cause. Also, can you imagine losing a child to something that was preventable? You can play numbers and statistics all day, but we're talking about children's lives. You're probably not a parent? But for reference, go find examples of p…

There are 5 reports of death following Covid-19 vaccination in VAERS for children 0.5-5, and ‘1.6 million US children ages 6 months-4 years have received at least one dose of COVID-19 vaccine’ as of 11-2-22. This is 3.125 deaths per million, and VAERS notoriously undercounts.

There are 31 reports of death following Covid-19 vaccination for children 5-12, and ‘10.9 million US children ages 5-11 have received at least one dose of COVID-19 vaccine’ as of 11-2-22. This is 2.84 deaths per million. Again, VAERS notoriously undercounts.

https://openvaers.com/covid-data/mortality

https://www.aap.org/en/pages/2019-novel-coronavirus-covid-19...

Re: Myocarditis after Covid vaccination: Research on possible long-term risks begins

#298

Post by shingle »

oliv__ wrote: post #234
shingle wrote: post #195

I can add my experience to this thread, as I was diagnosed with "atypical" pericarditis a little over a week after my first Pfizer shot. This started with chest pains, gradually increasing over the course of a day or two before I went to the hospital. I had to ask them to test for myopericarditis, because they were pretty much only considering an embolism or a panic attack. In that sense I was lucky that I had read a…

Quoted post unavailable.

I understand where you're coming from, I really do. It's rough to give up personal liberties for the "greater good", even though we already do on a daily basis. You can't run red light, you can't dodge taxes, ...

I don't think there was much malice in these new COVID-related laws. Sure there was some cronyism for financial gain in their execution, but that's not the point. I think they were motivated by an seemingly ever-increasing aversion to any form of risk and responsibility, both on governmental as well as societal level.

I'd love to understand and internally evaluate every law and practice that is put upon me, take my own responsibilities based on a thorough understanding of the issue. However, the world has grown too complex for any individual to understand why we are supposed to do the things that we are told to. It has become impossible to even be aware of every law.

I don't know what the "solution" to this extreme risk aversion is. I wonder if there is some historical precedent of a society undergoing the same tendencies and how that eventually got solved. Or didn't.

Re: Myocarditis after Covid vaccination: Research on possible long-term risks begins

#299

Post by piva00 »

jjcon wrote: post #278
sfusato wrote: post #275

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is that counting the 1st booster? These policy changes came after the 1st booster.

> Is that counting the 1st booster? These policy changes came after the 1st booster. Yes it is counting any booster after primary 2 doses - which policy changes specifically? Most of these countries have been relatively consistent in their approach to boosters.

At least in Sweden the policy regarding booster after the 3rd shot has changed [1]:

> Adults

> For adults aged 18–64, the recommendation for three doses of the vaccinate remains in force. But anyone who wants to receive an additional booster dose, dose 4, may do so in the autumn of 2022. 65 plus and risk groups

> An additional booster dose of the Covid-19 vaccine is recommended for the autumn and winter 2022/23 for adults aged 65 years or over, as well as people aged 18 or over who are in an at-risk group. This recommendation is valid from 1 September 2022 and covers everyone who is at an increased risk of serious Covid -19 disease.

[1] https://www.krisinformation.se/en/hazards-and-risks/disaster...

Re: Myocarditis after Covid vaccination: Research on possible long-term risks begins

#300

Post by ohiovr »

jzb wrote: post #160
ivraatiems wrote: post #65

I would just like us all to stop pretending that any of one's fear of COVID or skepticism of vaccines or distrust of whoever or whatever is about rational calculated risks. It's about how we feel, so let's talk about that. Look, everyone is scared of doing something until they're scared of not doing it. Everyone distrusts government until they trust it, and distrusts pharma until they trust it. Some people will wear…

"Can we just admit this isn't about logic or statistics, and never was? It was always a persuasion game either way." Kind of? The fact is that we've turned into a society where we can't even be unified in trying to prevent disease. If "the left" is for vaccines, masking, social distancing, etc. then "the right" has to immediately be against it. I don't recall any of my friends or family needing persuasion at all. The…

I don't watch TV. I hate TV. I am a programmer. I will never be programmed. People who fear, they do so because they were programmed.
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