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Putin may be planning to pummel Kyiv into submission

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Re: Putin may be planning to pummel Kyiv into submission

#241

Post by ChuckNorris89 »

inglor_cz wrote: post #191
ChuckNorris89 wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Depends to which sources you're listening to. Reddit and EU mainstream media are filled with constant propaganda that Ukraine is holding up and Russia is suffering from sanctions and loosing the war, but if you listen to actual military experts from the likes of Mi6 and USA agencies, they are skeptical of Ukraine being able to win this and western sanctions barely changing anything in favor of the Ukraine.

I don't think you need experts to see how the Russian offensive has stalled everywhere. Even in the south they barely make any progress at all.

>I don't think you need experts to see how the Russian offensive has stalled everywhere. Even in the south they barely make any progress at all.

If you analyze the actual situation, they're stalling there for good reason, nor because they can't go further. They're setting up permanent bases there so they can resupply easier, setup a field hospital and a service center for vehicle repairs. It will make next offensive much more efective, in theory.

Re: Putin may be planning to pummel Kyiv into submission

#242

Post by falcolas »

alkonaut wrote: post #223
scyzoryk_xyz wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I highly recommend looking into the history of Ukraine over the last 20-30 years in this case. The West/EU/NATO doesn’t court. And they’re extremely careful about generating the impression or sending a message that they’re actively pulling countries into their “sphere of influence”. For the process of inclusion to work there has to be undeniable proof that it is a democratic process that shows that the people of that…

Ukraine gave up their nuclear weapons in exchange for some security guarantees didn't they?

From Russia, no less. The US promised non-interference, Russia promised protection.

Re: Putin may be planning to pummel Kyiv into submission

#243

Post by lalaland1125 »

MrRiddle wrote: post #228
sofixa wrote: post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So what else is the goal? How many dead Ukrainians to achieve which goal in which way For Russia to leave them alone, and however it takes. Russia's economy is falling apart, and their army is in brutally terrible shape. They couldn't possibly occupy the country, even if they manage to conquer it, which they don't seem to be able to do. So victory for Ukraine is certain, ultimately. It will take time and cost a lot…

So in other words, you’re prepared to fight to the last Ukrainian, as long as it hurts Russia?

Why are you denying the agency of the Ukrainian people?

They are the ones choosing to fight. Look at the polls. Look at the interviews. Look at all the people there voluntarily picking up arms to defend their country.

Re: Putin may be planning to pummel Kyiv into submission

#244

Post by lalaland1125 »

pintxo wrote: post #103
scyzoryk_xyz wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I highly recommend looking into the history of Ukraine over the last 20-30 years in this case. The West/EU/NATO doesn’t court. And they’re extremely careful about generating the impression or sending a message that they’re actively pulling countries into their “sphere of influence”. For the process of inclusion to work there has to be undeniable proof that it is a democratic process that shows that the people of that…

This is from 2008: > NATO welcomes Ukraine’s and Georgia’s Euro-Atlantic aspirations for membership in NATO. We agreed today that these countries will become members of NATO. [1] [1] Item 23: https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natolive/official_texts_8443.htm

That was in response to Ukraine's president seeking to join NATO.

You have the timing backwards.

> In April 2005, Viktor Yushchenko returned to Ukraine's military doctrine the mention of Ukraine's strategic goal - "full membership in NATO and the European Union." The new text read as follows: "Based on the fact that NATO and the EU are the guarantors of security and stability in Europe, Ukraine is preparing for full membership in these organizations."

Re: Putin may be planning to pummel Kyiv into submission

#245

Post by xdennis »

cf141q5325 wrote: post #214
sofixa wrote: post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Ukrainians will die over the unwillingness to just take what ever demands Russia has now instead of in what ever time it takes to install a puppet regime in the rubble. And while some are forced to stay there due to conscription, quite a lot seem to be caught up in a nationalistic fever and delusional belief that "the West will stand with them". They don't want to submit to tyranny and they don't want to be ruled b…

Because you, your family and your neighbors will all die. Russia not able to win would look like Syria. Syria is a failed state propped up by Russia and Iran carved up by superpowers with the local population at their whim. We also dont live in 2000 anymore. As far as i am aware Ukraine didnt get any noteworthy anti air shipments. Stinger are useless for anything except passenger planes and some older helicopters. Yo…

> Because you, your family and your neighbors will all die.

No, because of the nazi orcs.

Sooner or later the civilized world will have to intervene.

Re: Putin may be planning to pummel Kyiv into submission

#246

Post by xdennis »

cf141q5325 wrote: post #153
saiya-jin wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Its a stupid suggestion to put it mildly, pardon my french. There is no deal to be signed. Unless you mean complete Ukrainian surrender, being dragged into being another Russian slave like Chechnya or Belarus. Putin doesn't accept anything less. Russia is now yet another horrible dictatorship, no reason to believe Ukraine would fare any better, in fact most probably much, much worse due to resistance to this invasion…

So what else is the goal? How many dead Ukrainians to achieve which goal in which way? Please be specific edit: I get that this sound snarky, but it will hopefully drive home the point. Unless you have a 3rd alternative to agreeing what ever the man with the nukes understands under "demilitarization and denazification" and joining a death cult with mandatory membership i dont really get what i can tell you.

> How many dead Ukrainians to achieve which goal in which way?

Russians, not Ukrainians.

Ukrainians will defend their country and the Russians won't have the stomach for a prolonged insurgency, just like in Afghanistan.

Afghanistan led to the fall of the USSR, and Ukraine will now lead to the fall and breakup of Russia.

Re: Putin may be planning to pummel Kyiv into submission

#247

Post by xdennis »

vogre wrote: post #230
glogla wrote: post #206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Putin's stated goal is total destruction of Ukraine, including the people and the culture. His Soviet predecessors have a few genocides in their name. Imagine yourself saying the same thing to Jews and WW2.

> Putin's stated goal is total destruction of Ukraine, including the people and the culture proof?

Putler literally broadcast this before the invasion.

Re: Putin may be planning to pummel Kyiv into submission

#248

Post by cf141q5325 »

xdennis wrote: post #245
cf141q5325 wrote: post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because you, your family and your neighbors will all die. Russia not able to win would look like Syria. Syria is a failed state propped up by Russia and Iran carved up by superpowers with the local population at their whim. We also dont live in 2000 anymore. As far as i am aware Ukraine didnt get any noteworthy anti air shipments. Stinger are useless for anything except passenger planes and some older helicopters. Yo…

> Because you, your family and your neighbors will all die. No, because of the nazi orcs. Sooner or later the civilized world will have to intervene.

Even if that were the case it wouldnt change the result. And that is that NATO will not trigger WW3 and faced with further resistance Russia is very like to escalate further having exactly the result i described. Especially if this turns into a truly ethnic conflict. I dont mean it derogatory and i dont know how else to word that your feelings dont change that. And i dont know how you could think that when taking a moment to think rationally. Neither Putin nor Stoltenberg take your feelings into account.

Re: Putin may be planning to pummel Kyiv into submission

#249

Post by ChuckNorris89 »

xdennis wrote: post #245
cf141q5325 wrote: post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because you, your family and your neighbors will all die. Russia not able to win would look like Syria. Syria is a failed state propped up by Russia and Iran carved up by superpowers with the local population at their whim. We also dont live in 2000 anymore. As far as i am aware Ukraine didnt get any noteworthy anti air shipments. Stinger are useless for anything except passenger planes and some older helicopters. Yo…

> Because you, your family and your neighbors will all die. No, because of the nazi orcs. Sooner or later the civilized world will have to intervene.

>Sooner or later the civilized world will have to intervene.

Sooner would be much better though. What are they waiting for? Russia to bomb Ukraine into an unlivable wasteland and have ~40 million refugees move west?

Re: Putin may be planning to pummel Kyiv into submission

#250

Post by stephen999 »

saiya-jin wrote: post #154
misja111 wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You mean something like this one https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goalkeeper_CIWS or the Iron Dome https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_Dome An Iron Dome was actually ordered by Ukraine but Israel blocked the transaction.

I hate their position right now... shows how unreliable partner to west they are when real SHTF

This will only work for a very unbalanced exchange though where the attacker has way fewer resources. The cost of an iron dome intercept will be far higher than that of an artillery shell. In an exchange of equally resourced opponents the attacker will quickly overwhelm the defense capabilities.
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