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Putin may be planning to pummel Kyiv into submission

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Re: Putin may be planning to pummel Kyiv into submission

#211

Post by ChuckNorris89 »

glogla wrote: post #192
ChuckNorris89 wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I doubt his kids would be killed in Austria/Switzerland/New Zeeland. Plus, the former head of Mi6 warned not to try and corner Putin, since if he were to be personally severely threatened, he wouldn't hesitate to turn to using nuclear weapons and take the whole world down with him if he were to ever be ousted form power by the west.

"Not cornering Putin" just means giving him what he wants. It is the opposite of what we need to do - show how weak he is and let his own people give him Gaddafi ending.

>show how weak he is and let his own people give him Gaddafi ending

Never gonna happen because:

1) The majority of the Russian population is still supportive of him, thinking they're fighting to liberate Ukraine from nazis and that the western sanctions are in place because the west hates them, rather than consequences for their leaders' war crimes

2) Like the former head of Mi6 said, Putin is so mad that if threatened, he's more likely to be ok with seeing the whole world get nuked, instead of going down like Gaddafi did, which is why the west is going so soft on him.

Re: Putin may be planning to pummel Kyiv into submission

#212

Post by sofixa »

MichaelRazum wrote: post #197
sofixa wrote: post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Israel doesn't want East Jerusalem and isn't creating illegal settlements there and in the West Bank, while simultaneously expelling Palestinians ?

"expelling Palestinians" please provide facts. You may mean "Sheikh Jarrah", which got sued by the owners, since they don't pay the rent. Just building settlements. So providing homes for people does't justify rockets and violence in my opinion. Settlements can be removed later if it is unacceptable for a Palestinian state to have some jew's

Oh that was a good deflection and a decent try at shifting the goalposts!

Sheikh Jarrah is only one of many cases.

> Just building settlements

That's a very weird way of putting it. Illegal settlements, in lands that don't belong to Israel, so it's not up to Israel to decide what to do with it. It's obviously a population displacement tactic - then there'd be Jews there, Israel can claim the lands, and if Palestine does decide to remove them, Israel will cry genocide and step in.

Re: Putin may be planning to pummel Kyiv into submission

#213

Post by glogla »

ChuckNorris89 wrote: post #211
glogla wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Not cornering Putin" just means giving him what he wants. It is the opposite of what we need to do - show how weak he is and let his own people give him Gaddafi ending.

>show how weak he is and let his own people give him Gaddafi ending Never gonna happen because: 1) The majority of the Russian population is still supportive of him, thinking they're fighting to liberate Ukraine from nazis and that the western sanctions are in place because the west hates them, rather than consequences for their leaders' war crimes 2) Like the former head of Mi6 said, Putin is so mad that if threaten…

> 2) Like the former head of Mi6 said, Putin is so mad that if threatened, he's more likely to be ok with seeing the whole world get nuked, instead of going down like Gaddafi did, which is why the west is going so soft on him.

That's ok. Putin doesn't have a big red button, he actually needs a lot of people to be ok with committing a suicide, and it is likely they won't.

And nuked world might be better than world in which Russian can do what it wants.

Re: Putin may be planning to pummel Kyiv into submission

#214

Post by cf141q5325 »

sofixa wrote: post #195
cf141q5325 wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure but depending how it is framed it has very real consequences. Just see the other post below you, cynically, already downvoted. It rallies people up in some self-righteous parallel reality cheering on the conflict quelling any voice of reason. After all there is the archetypal underdog you know and love from movies, surely the eagles will come any moment now. Ukrainians will die over the unwillingness to just tak…

> Ukrainians will die over the unwillingness to just take what ever demands Russia has now instead of in what ever time it takes to install a puppet regime in the rubble. And while some are forced to stay there due to conscription, quite a lot seem to be caught up in a nationalistic fever and delusional belief that "the West will stand with them". They don't want to submit to tyranny and they don't want to be ruled b…

Because you, your family and your neighbors will all die.

Russia not able to win would look like Syria. Syria is a failed state propped up by Russia and Iran carved up by superpowers with the local population at their whim.

We also dont live in 2000 anymore. As far as i am aware Ukraine didnt get any noteworthy anti air shipments. Stinger are useless for anything except passenger planes and some older helicopters. You wont shoot any jets down with it. And once doctrine switches back to standard artillery bombardment there isnt going to be much else to shoot at.

All of this not mentioning drone warfare and the ability to identify what they deem hostile elements. Russia is only limited in how cruel they are going to get in this. Of course they can win, it could just become very very horrible.

If you think this conflict will look like Titos partisans if escalated further, think more Grozny combined with the treatment of the Uyghurs.

edit: Think about that way, getting rid of everyone who still holds your opinion, that

>Most of them are aware that Russia cannot win. They cannot hope to occupy and rule Ukraine if Ukrainians don't want them to. Why submit then?

after a few months of classical bombardment is by now a trivial task. Same with the larger group who would do something about that. And even if you somehow could hide creating refugee waves is a very attractive geopolitical tool for Russia.

It is that bad.

Re: Putin may be planning to pummel Kyiv into submission

#215

Post by deepsun »

331c8c71 wrote: post #81
deepsun wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here, with names, times, place, photos and videos: https://www.currenttime.tv/a/31739955.html https://www.currenttime.tv/a/31740700.html https://www.currenttime.tv/a/31737800.html

I don't like people suffering as much as you do but I cannot conclude from these videos that these people were deliberately attacked by Russians (I mean videos with the footage). You are posting ukranian sources and as much as u sympathesize with their suffering it is wartime and information is propaganda.

Those are not Ukrainian sources, it's an independent channel in Russian.

If you don't believe testimonials of the people right there, the exact people who were attacked, then I see the only better source: go there yourself. What other evidence is better?

In any case, it's Russia who amassed a shit ton of military all around the Ukraine, and started the invasion.

Re: Putin may be planning to pummel Kyiv into submission

#216

Post by insickness »

vogre wrote: post #179
me_me_me wrote: post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This post is all over the place, sounds more like armchair general then anything else. > There are rules of war. Rules of war? What? Russians are breaking Geneva Conventions everyday, target civilians fleeing 'the wrong way', usage of mines cluster bombs, terror hit-squads attacking civ and press. They stopped playing by the rules the moment they invaded sovereign country - even US uses plausible excuses before invad…

Quoted post unavailable.

> Usage of cluster bombs is unproved.

You claim this is unproved yet make unsubstantiated claims yourself:

>The tactics of Ukrainian Army now is to increase death toll as much as possible, so western media can use it in propaganda.

Re: Putin may be planning to pummel Kyiv into submission

#217

Post by dzikimarian »

331c8c71 wrote: post #187
sofixa wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> How do you know that? Because CNN? There are videos of people getting blown up, eyewitness accounts, and Ukrainian official accounts. It's not something debatable. > Have you maybe talked to people who didn't want to go there? Or it is the Ukranian government decided "their" people don't want to go there? So you think that many people would want to be refugees in the country actually invading and trying to destroy…

> There are videos of people getting blown up, eyewitness accounts, and Ukrainian official accounts. It's not something debatable. Obviously people are getting hurt and it's sad and tragic. Russian forces targeting civilians is a different matter though which needs to be substantiated. We simple can't know right now. > So you think that many people would want to be refugees in the country actually invading and trying…

> Have you considered a possibility that Ukranian authorities are effectively preventing massive evacuations towards russia/belarus because it would look bad for them in press.

I talked with people who ran to my country. I lack the words to describe how delusional is the idea, they would like to move anywhere closer to Russia, even if Putin personally came in his jet to pick them up.

Re: Putin may be planning to pummel Kyiv into submission

#218

Post by deepsun »

thow-58d4e8b wrote: post #115
misja111 wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly. In Chechnya the Russians continued to bomb Grozny until the whole city was a ruin and people surrendered. The UN called Grozny 'the most destroyed city on earth'. But there were almost no consequences for Russia, the world just stood by and did nothing.

That's how urban warfare goes. Either prolonged Sarajevo-style siege waiting for surrender, or brutal block by block demolition until there's no place where defenders can fire from. The logic of urban warfare hasn't really changed since Stalingrad or Berlin It's also likely the reason the Russian advance stalled. Neither party really wants to go through that hell

> That's how urban warfare goes.

Then the blame should be on who started the "warfare".

Re: Putin may be planning to pummel Kyiv into submission

#219

Post by orwin »

inglor_cz wrote: post #191
ChuckNorris89 wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Depends to which sources you're listening to. Reddit and EU mainstream media are filled with constant propaganda that Ukraine is holding up and Russia is suffering from sanctions and loosing the war, but if you listen to actual military experts from the likes of Mi6 and USA agencies, they are skeptical of Ukraine being able to win this and western sanctions barely changing anything in favor of the Ukraine.

I don't think you need experts to see how the Russian offensive has stalled everywhere. Even in the south they barely make any progress at all.

If mariopol hold a month, you could be able to say they didn't make any progress. Unlikely bit still.

Re: Putin may be planning to pummel Kyiv into submission

#220

Post by q1w2 »

fabian2k wrote: post #132
cf141q5325 wrote: post #116

Well yes. Artillery bombardment is THE Russian military doctrine. Any uncertainty on the headline would mean assuming Russia had developed some unusual qualms on the subject. And why would they? It seems to me that among the moral outrage people kind of lost touch with reality. There is some basic facts, take it here from the German public broadcast >According to its president, Russia is seeking the "denazification"…

Just because Russia has no qualms about committing war crimes and slaughtering civilians doesn't mean we can't be outraged by this. Outrage about killing civilians is entirely justified.

Outrage is entirely justified. It is also largely useless.

Sanctions have material impact. Military supplies have material impact.

Twitter/Reddit/HN/Facebook outrage does not have material impact.

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