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Putin may be planning to pummel Kyiv into submission

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Re: Putin may be planning to pummel Kyiv into submission

#221

Post by q1w2 »

saiya-jin wrote: post #150
MrRiddle wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly, on /r/europe I suggested exactly this would happen and how Ukrainian government should sign the deal while they still have some leverage left. I got banned from it for life because of it.

Its a stupid suggestion to put it mildly, pardon my french. There is no deal to be signed. Unless you mean complete Ukrainian surrender, being dragged into being another Russian slave like Chechnya or Belarus. Putin doesn't accept anything less. Russia is now yet another horrible dictatorship, no reason to believe Ukraine would fare any better, in fact most probably much, much worse due to resistance to this invasion…

He is referring to the deal offered PRIOR to the invasion. The deal that Ukraine commit to never joining NATO and agree to recognize Crimea as Russian.

In retrospect, that was better than Ukrainian cities being absolutely destroyed.

The rest of us are very keyboard brave with Ukrainian lives - telling them to fight to the end. ...but you would not be so brave if you had to live through this yourself.

Re: Putin may be planning to pummel Kyiv into submission

#222

Post by q1w2 »

sofixa wrote: post #200
cf141q5325 wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So what else is the goal? How many dead Ukrainians to achieve which goal in which way? Please be specific edit: I get that this sound snarky, but it will hopefully drive home the point. Unless you have a 3rd alternative to agreeing what ever the man with the nukes understands under "demilitarization and denazification" and joining a death cult with mandatory membership i dont really get what i can tell you.

> So what else is the goal? How many dead Ukrainians to achieve which goal in which way For Russia to leave them alone, and however it takes. Russia's economy is falling apart, and their army is in brutally terrible shape. They couldn't possibly occupy the country, even if they manage to conquer it, which they don't seem to be able to do. So victory for Ukraine is certain, ultimately. It will take time and cost a lot…

You're so brave with other people's lives.

Re: Putin may be planning to pummel Kyiv into submission

#223

Post by alkonaut »

scyzoryk_xyz wrote: post #56
rlt wrote: post #24

I don’t understand all the history and nuance of the situation, but I feel incredibly guilty on behalf of the west for courting Ukraine for admission to NATO / EU, but leaving them in a very precarious and vulnerable position in the meantime. It’s just an impossible and sad situation.

I highly recommend looking into the history of Ukraine over the last 20-30 years in this case. The West/EU/NATO doesn’t court. And they’re extremely careful about generating the impression or sending a message that they’re actively pulling countries into their “sphere of influence”. For the process of inclusion to work there has to be undeniable proof that it is a democratic process that shows that the people of that…

Ukraine gave up their nuclear weapons in exchange for some security guarantees didn't they?

Re: Putin may be planning to pummel Kyiv into submission

#224

Post by moltke »

alkonaut wrote: post #223
scyzoryk_xyz wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I highly recommend looking into the history of Ukraine over the last 20-30 years in this case. The West/EU/NATO doesn’t court. And they’re extremely careful about generating the impression or sending a message that they’re actively pulling countries into their “sphere of influence”. For the process of inclusion to work there has to be undeniable proof that it is a democratic process that shows that the people of that…

Ukraine gave up their nuclear weapons in exchange for some security guarantees didn't they?

Now we know exactly why that doesn't work.

Re: Putin may be planning to pummel Kyiv into submission

#225

Post by alkonaut »

simon_000666 wrote: post #61

I’m surprised there is no technical solution to shell-ing. Some kind of autonomous anti-shell gun that shoots them down mid flight? It seems like a fairly common problem.

There is anti artillery radar, i.e. radar that helps position artillery so you can counterattack with your own artillery, drones etc. But it requires your own offensive capability.

Re: Putin may be planning to pummel Kyiv into submission

#226

Post by misja111 »

cf141q5325 wrote: post #116

Well yes. Artillery bombardment is THE Russian military doctrine. Any uncertainty on the headline would mean assuming Russia had developed some unusual qualms on the subject. And why would they? It seems to me that among the moral outrage people kind of lost touch with reality. There is some basic facts, take it here from the German public broadcast >According to its president, Russia is seeking the "denazification"…

> There can be no NATO intervention without triggering WW3. Any sanctions left would be oil which the economy of most western countries likely cant stomach.

I wonder how you picture NATO intervention without WW3, could you explain? IMO Nato intervention means a military confrontation between NATO and Russian forces.

Also I don't agree with your second point. 'Any sanctions left' here means actually more than the entire packet of sanctions that the West has taken so far. The West spends hundreds of billions each year on Russion gas and oil. Sanctioning this would seriously hurt the Russian economy and Putin's war chest. Yes, it would also hurt the European economy, but surely many magnitudes less than a WW3.

Re: Putin may be planning to pummel Kyiv into submission

#227

Post by moltke »

glogla wrote: post #206
MrRiddle wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly, on /r/europe I suggested exactly this would happen and how Ukrainian government should sign the deal while they still have some leverage left. I got banned from it for life because of it.

Putin's stated goal is total destruction of Ukraine, including the people and the culture. His Soviet predecessors have a few genocides in their name. Imagine yourself saying the same thing to Jews and WW2.

[flagged]

Re: Putin may be planning to pummel Kyiv into submission

#228

Post by MrRiddle »

sofixa wrote: post #200
cf141q5325 wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So what else is the goal? How many dead Ukrainians to achieve which goal in which way? Please be specific edit: I get that this sound snarky, but it will hopefully drive home the point. Unless you have a 3rd alternative to agreeing what ever the man with the nukes understands under "demilitarization and denazification" and joining a death cult with mandatory membership i dont really get what i can tell you.

> So what else is the goal? How many dead Ukrainians to achieve which goal in which way For Russia to leave them alone, and however it takes. Russia's economy is falling apart, and their army is in brutally terrible shape. They couldn't possibly occupy the country, even if they manage to conquer it, which they don't seem to be able to do. So victory for Ukraine is certain, ultimately. It will take time and cost a lot…

So in other words, you’re prepared to fight to the last Ukrainian, as long as it hurts Russia?

Re: Putin may be planning to pummel Kyiv into submission

#229

Post by MrRiddle »

q1w2 wrote: post #221
saiya-jin wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Its a stupid suggestion to put it mildly, pardon my french. There is no deal to be signed. Unless you mean complete Ukrainian surrender, being dragged into being another Russian slave like Chechnya or Belarus. Putin doesn't accept anything less. Russia is now yet another horrible dictatorship, no reason to believe Ukraine would fare any better, in fact most probably much, much worse due to resistance to this invasion…

He is referring to the deal offered PRIOR to the invasion. The deal that Ukraine commit to never joining NATO and agree to recognize Crimea as Russian. In retrospect, that was better than Ukrainian cities being absolutely destroyed. The rest of us are very keyboard brave with Ukrainian lives - telling them to fight to the end. ...but you would not be so brave if you had to live through this yourself.

Exactly, how many cities have to be destroyed before they sign? And they will be destroyed if they don’t fold.

There is exactly one way of ending this, only difference is how much Ukraine is willing to pay in blood and resources before they sign.

Re: Putin may be planning to pummel Kyiv into submission

#230

Post by vogre »

glogla wrote: post #206
MrRiddle wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly, on /r/europe I suggested exactly this would happen and how Ukrainian government should sign the deal while they still have some leverage left. I got banned from it for life because of it.

Putin's stated goal is total destruction of Ukraine, including the people and the culture. His Soviet predecessors have a few genocides in their name. Imagine yourself saying the same thing to Jews and WW2.

> Putin's stated goal is total destruction of Ukraine, including the people and the culture

proof?

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