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Putin may be planning to pummel Kyiv into submission

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Re: Putin may be planning to pummel Kyiv into submission

#51

Post by atkailash »

curiousgal wrote: post #33
shmageggy wrote: post #5

It's so incredibly sad to see this playing out exactly as many predicted and being unable to stop it (due to the threat of nuclear war). It's like standing on a train track and seeing an oncoming train miles away and yet being unable to move. So many (more) Ukrainians are about to die or suffer horribly, and much of the physical history and cultural artifacts of that city will be destroyed.

This is genuinely not an attempt at flamewar but why can't civilians just leave? Russia is obviously going to win. It's the same with Palestenians, they obviously have not and will not win against Israel. The logical thing to do is to leave, suffer but be sure that your kids will have it better. But I reckon this isn't about logic?

No post body was provided.

Re: Putin may be planning to pummel Kyiv into submission

#52

Post by dgellow »

curiousgal wrote: post #33
shmageggy wrote: post #5

It's so incredibly sad to see this playing out exactly as many predicted and being unable to stop it (due to the threat of nuclear war). It's like standing on a train track and seeing an oncoming train miles away and yet being unable to move. So many (more) Ukrainians are about to die or suffer horribly, and much of the physical history and cultural artifacts of that city will be destroyed.

This is genuinely not an attempt at flamewar but why can't civilians just leave? Russia is obviously going to win. It's the same with Palestenians, they obviously have not and will not win against Israel. The logical thing to do is to leave, suffer but be sure that your kids will have it better. But I reckon this isn't about logic?

Lot of people left. People who stayed couldn’t leave or decided to defend their country, culture, and values. Also keep in mind that Russian are targeting citizens and refuse to keep paths open to let people flee safely.

Re: Putin may be planning to pummel Kyiv into submission

#54

Post by heyhihello »

Aeolun wrote: post #8
jacquesm wrote: post #2

The number of warcrimes committed by the Russians is astounding. But shooting at fleeing civilians has to earn you a very special place in hell. This is pure blackmail, and it won't stop here.

It’s reprehensible for sure, but I’m fairly confident it’s not all that uncommon in war. It’s just the first time in history that the whole world sees the horrors of war streamed live. Which is a good thing I guess, there’s a whole new generation now that might learn ‘never again’ without actually having to go through the experience. Edit: Of course we always had the news, but a reporter showing the aftereffects from…

This.

In Vietnam, Americans (a small minority) collected ears of those they killed. The Viet Cong held barrels with rats to stomachs and burned the other end, forcing rats to eat through stomachs.

In Rwanda, neighbors killed neighbors with their bare hands.

In World War 2, +150,000 civilians were wiped instantaneously.

In former Yugoslavia, neighbors lined neighbors up and executed them.

There is no war without war crimes. And as usual, it’s the citizens that suffer, rarely the elite.

Re: Putin may be planning to pummel Kyiv into submission

#55

Post by hef19898 »

curiousgal wrote: post #26
buffalo2391 wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

World you like to see photos? There are many posted on some of the darker subreddits.

Honestly, I stopped using Reddit, the amount of Ukranian propaganda has been through the roof. People are romanticizing the war. I log in to look at memes and cat videos and instead watch kids making molotoves. I have no horse in this race, propoganda is propoganda.

It sure is. Ukraine is using that weapon masterfully so. Kudos for that, and I really mean it. The net result for me being that I ignore the news and only check once every couple of days if a major city has fallen or not. Everything else is just propaganda, including most media coverage, combined with the normal attention and click gathering reporting we se on any story.

That's why confirmation and vetting by orgs like, e.g., Human Rights Watch is so important.

Re: Putin may be planning to pummel Kyiv into submission

#56

Post by scyzoryk_xyz »

rlt wrote: post #24

I don’t understand all the history and nuance of the situation, but I feel incredibly guilty on behalf of the west for courting Ukraine for admission to NATO / EU, but leaving them in a very precarious and vulnerable position in the meantime. It’s just an impossible and sad situation.

I highly recommend looking into the history of Ukraine over the last 20-30 years in this case.

The West/EU/NATO doesn’t court. And they’re extremely careful about generating the impression or sending a message that they’re actively pulling countries into their “sphere of influence”.

For the process of inclusion to work there has to be undeniable proof that it is a democratic process that shows that the people of that country actively want membership. Poland managed to pull this off in the 90’s when Russian influence was weak and memories of Soviet influence were vivid. And even then the process was slow and difficult - the “West” is a demanding club to join.

Re: Putin may be planning to pummel Kyiv into submission

#57

Post by shmageggy »

alephnan wrote: post #15
shmageggy wrote: post #5

It's so incredibly sad to see this playing out exactly as many predicted and being unable to stop it (due to the threat of nuclear war). It's like standing on a train track and seeing an oncoming train miles away and yet being unable to move. So many (more) Ukrainians are about to die or suffer horribly, and much of the physical history and cultural artifacts of that city will be destroyed.

> It's so incredibly sad to see this playing out exactly as many predicted The narrative started out that Putin is a dog backed into a corner, therefore he is bluffing and won’t actually invade. The story was also that he has the most to lose. Maybe the premise was correct, but the conclusion hasn’t been proven valid yet.

There has been a lot of hopeful, and daresay wishful thinking so far, but even Boris Johnson was warning of this potentiality a couple of days into the invasion, and I doubt that thought had only just occurred.

> ...his only instinct is going to be to double down and to try and ‘Grozny-fy’ Kyiv, if you know what I mean. And to reduce it to [rubble]

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2022/mar/01/uk-pol...

Re: Putin may be planning to pummel Kyiv into submission

#58

Post by alephnan »

rlt wrote: post #46
alephnan wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

NATO and by that we mean the United States has always been in ambiguous and uncommitted relationships with countries. Their communication is very subtle and succinct. It’s the same with Taiwan. They do not deny China’s claim to Taiwan, but that is logically not equivalent to saying they accept China’s claim to Taiwan. They use language that is convenient for the politicians of those countries to appease their constit…

Is it subtle? Wikipedia says Ukraine was in the “Intensified Dialog” phase which apparently means they are engaged in ‘discussion of a "full range of political, military, financial and security issues relating to possible NATO membership“‘ https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enlargement_of_NATO#Intensif...

So is it bureaucracy holdup or a matter of negotiations?

Re: Putin may be planning to pummel Kyiv into submission

#59

Post by deepsun »

331c8c71 wrote: post #12
jacquesm wrote: post #2

The number of warcrimes committed by the Russians is astounding. But shooting at fleeing civilians has to earn you a very special place in hell. This is pure blackmail, and it won't stop here.

Quoted post unavailable.

Here, with names, times, place, photos and videos:

https://www.currenttime.tv/a/31739955.html

https://www.currenttime.tv/a/31740700.html

https://www.currenttime.tv/a/31737800.html

Re: Putin may be planning to pummel Kyiv into submission

#60

Post by 331c8c71 »

jacquesm wrote: post #19
331c8c71 wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Quoted post unavailable.

Enough to convince Human Rights Watch. " Dat rapporteert mensenrechtenorganisatie Human Rights Watch (HRW) op basis van ooggetuigen en beeldanalyses. " According to a report by humanrights organization Human Rights Watch based on eye witness accounts and image analysis. https://www.nu.nl/spanningen-oekraine/6185514/mensenrechteno...

have you actually read what you have posted? i google translated:

> There were also some Ukrainian soldiers present at the intersection, but they were outnumbered, according to HRW. The Ukrainian soldiers who were at the crossroads helped the refugees with their luggage. A few hundred meters away, Russian and Ukrainian troops were fighting each other. According to HRW, the Russians may have deliberately fired projectiles at the intersection

To me it reads like there was an engagement between the ukranian and russian soldiers nearby and unfortunately some civilians were caught in a crossfire.

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