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New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

nytimes.com

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Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#291

Post by endisneigh »

rhaway84773 wrote: post #255

The reactions to the gas hookup ban really reminds me of how insular Americans really are. They can’t even imagine a world where gas does not come in pipes, when arguably that’s how the vast majority of the world lives. You want a gas stove? Buy a gas stove, and get a cylinder. No one is stopping you from doing that. Just don’t expect everyone else to subsidize running that gas in a pipe up to your gas stove.

Would you say the same about plumbing? Much if the world doesn’t have that, you have to go and carry your own water from a local river to your house.

Imagine how little water waste there would be if you had to haul it yourself.

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#292

Post by mardifoufs »

hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #184
ajsnigrutin wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is also a third problem with this.... what happens when shit hits the fan? If you use gas and your neighbours use electricity, and there's suddenly a power outage, you can help your neighbors and heat/cook their food too,... or in case of a gas system outage, they can help with yours. If you heat with gas, you don't freeze even with a power outage, and can still buy a cheap electric heater with a gas outage...…

I'm guessing (maybe hoping?) that the downvotes are for the seemingly overly apocalyptic tone of your post. But FWIW, as someone who is from Texas who lost power for 5 days during Uri and nearly a week for the latest freeze this winter, I wholeheartedly agree. Not sure how I would have made it during Uri without gas - even with gas, we couldn't run our heater (system still needs electricity to run the fans, thermosta…

To be fair, here in Québec I lost power for 4 days not even 3 weeks ago. So did 1 million people in Montréal (!). The only reason it wasn't catastrophic was that the weather was exceptionally merciful (if we ignore the freezing rains that caused the outages in the first place). We used our wood stove a lot (not legal in Montreal itself but still is in most areas around it) even with warmer temperatures and the stove honestly saved our Ramadan meals lol.

I guess it depends on where you live! But to me it's certainly iffy to ask people to just be ok with being helpless if unpredictable stuff happens.

Two decades and a half ago, the Quebec grid was completely fubar* for the most part of January due to freezing rains too so it's not super uncommon.

*worse than Texas 2 years ago as the electricity infrastructure physically collapsed, literally.

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#293

Post by operatingthetan »

WalterBright wrote: post #101
JamisonM wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"You can run the blower and electronics of a natural gas furnace or boiler off a little camping generator.." Likewise for a heat pump, right? Does this "power out for days after a winter storm" thing actually happen very often? I am from Manitoba and my worst-ever experience was 10-11 hours when it was very, very cold out in 35+ years.

It's been out for 10 days at a time in Seattle.

Not for me it hasn't, you seem to be describing a very specific edge case, which doesn't seem that honest of an example.

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#294

Post by UncleMeat »

ajsnigrutin wrote: post #176
hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #166

I don't often like to take a "both sides" approach when assessing specific issues, but this one just seems to highlight the stupidity, or at the very least shortsightedness, of both sides. On one hand, for those pushing for a ban, this seems largely performative, a la banning plastic straws. Gas is used for 2 main reasons: for cooking, where it represents a miniscule amount of overall energy use, and for heating, whe…

There is also a third problem with this.... what happens when shit hits the fan? If you use gas and your neighbours use electricity, and there's suddenly a power outage, you can help your neighbors and heat/cook their food too,... or in case of a gas system outage, they can help with yours. If you heat with gas, you don't freeze even with a power outage, and can still buy a cheap electric heater with a gas outage...…

My gas furnace won't run if there's no power because it uses various electrical systems for safety controls. I am not convinced that "we'll have it if we lose power" is actually a meaningful part of the public's reasoning for purchasing gas furnaces.

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#295

Post by john_shafthair »

JamisonM wrote: post #65
john_shafthair wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not when the power's out for days - as often happens in winter storms. You can run the blower and electronics of a natural gas furnace or boiler off a little camping generator for a week or even better a natural gas whole house unit in perpetuity. So you don't, you know, freeze to death.

"You can run the blower and electronics of a natural gas furnace or boiler off a little camping generator.." Likewise for a heat pump, right? Does this "power out for days after a winter storm" thing actually happen very often? I am from Manitoba and my worst-ever experience was 10-11 hours when it was very, very cold out in 35+ years.

No. A heat pump requires a significantly higher amount of electricity to function.

An average gas furnace blower motor draws around 7A at 120V.

A heat pump can require between 20A-40A at *240V* PLUS the air handler which is the same as above. A heat pump air handler is just a furnace without burners. If supplemental heat strips are needed they can be on a 50A breaker at 240V.

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#296

Post by seanmcdirmid »

anonymouskimmer wrote: post #243
WalterBright wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> a third world country if you measure things by quality of government services And yet Californians pay enormous taxes.

> And yet Californians pay enormous taxes. Part of this is because California is the most populous state with a high average personal income. When talking about actual tax burden averages the best way to calculate is by dividing the total state and local taxes by the total income in the state. https://www.taxpolicycenter.org/statistics/state-and-local-t... In 2020 the total tax rate in California was 10.01% of total…

Your tax burden in California is also less if you are poorer. For example, you’ll pay more income tax in Alabama than California if you just make $40k/year, since AL taxes are more regressive in general.

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#297

Post by PM_me_your_math »

CardenB wrote: post #117
rayiner wrote: post #17

And NPR told me that the possibility of gas stoves being banned was fake outrage: https://www.npr.org/2023/01/20/1150228734/the-facts-and-stra... .

There’s a difference between “no new construction with gas stoves” and “seizing all gas stoves” lol

No, you're just saying "you can't have a gas stove, gas heater, or gas water heater because we said so."

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#298

Post by sudosysgen »

briantakita wrote: post #218
analog31 wrote: post #197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My gas heat goes down if electricity fails.

My gas stove can be connected to a gas tank which can be bought at a gas station for less than $30USD... I can also purchase a propane heater from Home Depot or Lowes which can run off the same gas tanks for less than $200USD.

Still won't work. If your home is sufficiently air-tight so that you won't die of cold with that paltry amount of gas, you're going to die from the carbon monoxide from your stove.

The propane heater from Home Depot either has the same problem or it uses electricity for the air induction system.

If your goal is to be prepared, a generator and a heat pump will last longer, it will be cheaper for you and society in the long run, it will have more utility, and we have far more gasoline stockpiled and ready for emergencies than we have natural gas.

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#299

Post by 8note »

0xdead8ead wrote: post #114
someonehere wrote: post #22

Berkeley attempted this and it was recently overturned: https://www.cbsnews.com/news/court-overturns-berkeley-califo... California's electric grid is in horrendous shape. We can barely keep the power on in the summertime, especially when wildfires happen. When the power is out, am I expected to start a fire in my yard to cook food? Fire up my JetBoil? My BBQ?

Eugene tried this as well. City council passed it without input from the community and is facing backlash. Since the 9th circuit decision, the ordinance has been called into question. https://www.bendbulletin.com/business/eugene-s-natural-gas-b... The community has since generated enough signatures to put the ban to a public vote that will be voted on in November. Anecdotally, I'd say, most my neighbors are against t…

If the 240v circuit is your problem, then this ordinance helps solve it, no? Future houses will be better set up to handle your task using electricity than hooking in a gas pipe to your boiler

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#300

Post by 8note »

toast0 wrote: post #256
hedora wrote: post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That works if you have natural gas service. My estimate assumes solar panels, batteries and a generator that tops the battery off in emergencies. This year, most people with just batteries lost power due to no sun, and people with just generators lost power due to no propane delivery service/supply.

Most natural gas generators are orderable for propane. Propane delivery is available most places, although you also need to find a place for the tank. It's more convenient to have fuel delivered via pipeline, but somewhat less resilient (although I personally don't have any experience with outages of utility natural gas, it is a possibility). Based on the one ~ 3 day outage I had, my whole house generator's tank is g…

Pipelines everywhere is also bad for leaking methane from a billion tubes
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