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New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

nytimes.com

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Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#171

Post by brianwawok »

hedora wrote: post #145
mcculley wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Most people around here buy enough battery or generators to keep the power on. This is a surprising assertion to me. How can “most people” afford batteries and generators?

$50-60K is enough to buy a backup system, and not much compared to the price of a house in this area.

My whole house natural gas generator was closer to 10k and 5-10k install. Provides like 90 amps. Good for all the storms around here. I just turn off my hot tub and EV charging and I can do anything else including AC.

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#172

Post by Symbiote »

0xdead8ead wrote: post #114
someonehere wrote: post #22

Berkeley attempted this and it was recently overturned: https://www.cbsnews.com/news/court-overturns-berkeley-califo... California's electric grid is in horrendous shape. We can barely keep the power on in the summertime, especially when wildfires happen. When the power is out, am I expected to start a fire in my yard to cook food? Fire up my JetBoil? My BBQ?

Eugene tried this as well. City council passed it without input from the community and is facing backlash. Since the 9th circuit decision, the ordinance has been called into question. https://www.bendbulletin.com/business/eugene-s-natural-gas-b... The community has since generated enough signatures to put the ban to a public vote that will be voted on in November. Anecdotally, I'd say, most my neighbors are against t…

(The site is blocked in the EU.)

Since the NY ban is for new construction, wouldn't the obvious thing be to install more 240V circuits in the new buildings?

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#173

Post by novaRom »

fwungy wrote: post #150
galleywest200 wrote: post #46

Only 24% of my state (Washington) has gas stoves. We have already begun the process to ban Natural Gas into new buildings. Nothing major is happening and the sky is not falling. If you are curious about your state's ratio of gas to electric stoves, you can check here [PDF warning]: https://www.eia.gov/consumption/residential/data/2020/state/...

Washington is unique in its hydropower positioning. It's easy to electrify in Washington because it makes sense to do so. Hydropower is cheap and clean. Unfortunately it's not a replicable model for the rest of the country.

Germany has almost no hydropower, no nuclear power anymore, but German government is continuing to insist a similar ban on natural gas in all new buildings should be introduced (or maybe already in action).

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#175

Post by topaz0 »

hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #166

I don't often like to take a "both sides" approach when assessing specific issues, but this one just seems to highlight the stupidity, or at the very least shortsightedness, of both sides. On one hand, for those pushing for a ban, this seems largely performative, a la banning plastic straws. Gas is used for 2 main reasons: for cooking, where it represents a miniscule amount of overall energy use, and for heating, whe…

A big part of the reason for banning gas is not energy but indoor pollution. There's pretty strong and growing evidence that cooking with gas leads to substantial health risks because of various combustion products that end up in your air (especially if not properly vented).

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#176

Post by ajsnigrutin »

hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #166

I don't often like to take a "both sides" approach when assessing specific issues, but this one just seems to highlight the stupidity, or at the very least shortsightedness, of both sides. On one hand, for those pushing for a ban, this seems largely performative, a la banning plastic straws. Gas is used for 2 main reasons: for cooking, where it represents a miniscule amount of overall energy use, and for heating, whe…

There is also a third problem with this.... what happens when shit hits the fan?

If you use gas and your neighbours use electricity, and there's suddenly a power outage, you can help your neighbors and heat/cook their food too,... or in case of a gas system outage, they can help with yours. If you heat with gas, you don't freeze even with a power outage, and can still buy a cheap electric heater with a gas outage... if you heat with electricity, you can atleast try to find someone with gas heat to let you sleep over and not freeze.

Banning everything except electricity is just calling for a catastrophy.

(yes yes, i know, old heaters will stay, this applies only to new construction, but in 30 years, most old devices will be replaced too)

edit: i don't know why the downvotes... probably not many people from texas here... or anywhere else in the world... or maybe people think that NY is somehow immune to such outages

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#177

Post by mamoswine »

mschuster91 wrote: post #159
nuancebydefault wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's really amazing how people can talk about 200 amps as if it's nothing. We have a household installation of 40 amps (220) and last year there were months that cost 400 euros per month on electricity, and we are not heavy electricity users (we have no electric cloth dryer but have a small robot mower tho) It is almost like talking about 400HP cars/suvs, my 3 cylinder car is doing just fine at 84 kW max. Am I being…

You're talking in Euros... we have 230V power, while Americans and a few other holdouts still use 110V. The problem is, the lower the voltage the more current you need - an 1 kW vacuum draws 9 amps in the US, but 4.5 in Europe. The unit of billing - kW/h - however remains the same.

This sounds plausible but is subtly incorrect: the US uses split phase power and 100A means 100A on each of the two legs (+/-120V). So if you balance the legs correctly, you can get 240V*100A on 100A service. This is important for example for car charging where both legs are used and balanced.

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#178

Post by implements »

mschuster91 wrote: post #159
nuancebydefault wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's really amazing how people can talk about 200 amps as if it's nothing. We have a household installation of 40 amps (220) and last year there were months that cost 400 euros per month on electricity, and we are not heavy electricity users (we have no electric cloth dryer but have a small robot mower tho) It is almost like talking about 400HP cars/suvs, my 3 cylinder car is doing just fine at 84 kW max. Am I being…

You're talking in Euros... we have 230V power, while Americans and a few other holdouts still use 110V. The problem is, the lower the voltage the more current you need - an 1 kW vacuum draws 9 amps in the US, but 4.5 in Europe. The unit of billing - kW/h - however remains the same.

America is 120v now, I believe - and many houses have a centre-tapped neutral supply [1] which means they actually can have 240v outlets in garages, workshops, utility rooms (etc) for high power devices.

[1] https://electronics.stackexchange.com/questions/487836/how-d...

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#179

Post by amrocha »

ajsnigrutin wrote: post #176
hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #166

I don't often like to take a "both sides" approach when assessing specific issues, but this one just seems to highlight the stupidity, or at the very least shortsightedness, of both sides. On one hand, for those pushing for a ban, this seems largely performative, a la banning plastic straws. Gas is used for 2 main reasons: for cooking, where it represents a miniscule amount of overall energy use, and for heating, whe…

There is also a third problem with this.... what happens when shit hits the fan? If you use gas and your neighbours use electricity, and there's suddenly a power outage, you can help your neighbors and heat/cook their food too,... or in case of a gas system outage, they can help with yours. If you heat with gas, you don't freeze even with a power outage, and can still buy a cheap electric heater with a gas outage...…

If "shit hits the fan" to the point that you don't have electricity for several weeks then it's unreasonable to expect to be able to shelter in your own home imo.

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#180

Post by [deleted] »

jillesvangurp wrote: post #131
stathibus wrote: post #2

Everyone is worked up about losing their gas stove, but natural gas heating is far more reliable and efficient than any electric option right now. This will create a lot of issues until heat pumps catch up. Northern New York is very cold.

Heat pumps are about 250-300% efficient. Relative to resistive heating which is of course 100% efficient. Gas is about close to 100% (you loose some via exhaust). Ground source heat pumps work pretty much anywhere. Air source heat pumps can be more challenging but can also work at more extreme temperatures. They don't stop working but their efficiency drops a bit. And of course resistive heating doesn't stop working.…

[deleted]
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