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New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

nytimes.com

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Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#21

Post by lesuorac »

gainda wrote: post #19

"In addition to the environmental concerns raised by such widespread use of natural gas, some health experts have also argued that using it in the home, especially when cooking, may pose a health risk to consumers." Spending a day walking around NYC is probably worse for my health than years of gas stove usage. Every time I leave the city I feel like I need a shower from all the grime and who knows what I feel caked…

The article is about a ban from the State not the City so I'm not too sure why the cleanliness of NYC matters.

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#22

Post by someonehere »

Berkeley attempted this and it was recently overturned: https://www.cbsnews.com/news/court-overturns-berkeley-califo...

California's electric grid is in horrendous shape. We can barely keep the power on in the summertime, especially when wildfires happen. When the power is out, am I expected to start a fire in my yard to cook food? Fire up my JetBoil? My BBQ?

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#23

Post by john_shafthair »

lesuorac wrote: post #18
rayiner wrote: post #17

And NPR told me that the possibility of gas stoves being banned was fake outrage: https://www.npr.org/2023/01/20/1150228734/the-facts-and-stra... .

> And NPR told me that the possibility of gas stoves being banned was fake outrage: https://www.npr.org/2023/01/20/1150228734/the-facts-and-stra... No they didn't. > MARTÍNEZ: Look, Jeff and Lisa, I don't know what's going to happen with gas stoves. Also NPR was talking about the Federal government. While the article above is talking about the New York _State_ government.

Literally the first sentence of their rebuttal admits it's all performative:

> Well, the risk for the environment, it's more about what gas stoves have come to represent. And that's the practice of burning natural gas in homes.

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#24

Post by jrockway »

someonehere wrote: post #22

Berkeley attempted this and it was recently overturned: https://www.cbsnews.com/news/court-overturns-berkeley-califo... California's electric grid is in horrendous shape. We can barely keep the power on in the summertime, especially when wildfires happen. When the power is out, am I expected to start a fire in my yard to cook food? Fire up my JetBoil? My BBQ?

A bigger problem is getting a feed to your house that can handle your hot water heater, stove, washing machine, and electric car charging all at once. That's rather impractical in some areas, so there is some work to coordinate between the appliances so they can share a smaller feed. The way some stoves are participating is that they charge a battery at relatively low current all the time, and then cook from the battery at high current when the half-hour a day that you cook comes. That way you don't need a special circuit, and can cook while your hot water heater or washing machine is running. The added benefit is that your stove is now a UPS basically, so you can cook while the power's out. (I believe some can share power with other appliances, i.e. keep your refrigerator running for a while.)

I have a gas range and it doesn't work when the electricity is off. If that's your contingency plan, check that a safety valve doesn't close when power is lost.

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#25

Post by lesuorac »

john_shafthair wrote: post #23
lesuorac wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And NPR told me that the possibility of gas stoves being banned was fake outrage: https://www.npr.org/2023/01/20/1150228734/the-facts-and-stra... No they didn't. > MARTÍNEZ: Look, Jeff and Lisa, I don't know what's going to happen with gas stoves. Also NPR was talking about the Federal government. While the article above is talking about the New York _State_ government.

Literally the first sentence of their rebuttal admits it's all performative: > Well, the risk for the environment, it's more about what gas stoves have come to represent. And that's the practice of burning natural gas in homes.

Stay on topic champ.

rayiner's comment is that NPR told him "the possibility of gas stoves being banned was fake outrage".

Whether or not gas stoves _should_ be banned is irrelevant. NPR clearly stated that they could become banned and that they don't know if they will.

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#26

Post by john_shafthair »

CydeWeys wrote: post #20
john_shafthair wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Electric resistance heat is super inefficient. That's why it's often referred to as "emergency heat". Ironically the best combo is a heat pump + natural gas furnace as a backup. Best of both worlds. But here we are making those illegal so we can pretend to save the planet.

> Ironically the best combo is a heat pump + natural gas furnace as a backup. Best of both worlds. But here we are making those illegal so we can pretend to save the planet. How does this work in practice though? The natural gas distribution lines don't pay for themselves. If they're only gonna be used in emergencies then they'll be crazy expensive. You have a lot of money by not having to run natural gas through a n…

I agree with everything you said except there has been a war on heating oil since before this tiff with natural gas. So even suggesting that is anathema because it would be career suicide for the politicians pushing this. You can certainly use an oil furnace as a second stage, though oil is more often used as a boiler for steam or hydronic.

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#27

Post by oakwhiz »

john_shafthair wrote: post #16
oakwhiz wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is there a possibility that very old buildings are grandfathered in with existing ducts? Maybe they should be required to upgrade that.

It's very possible, and might be impossible to upgrade a large multi unit building. In most jurisdictions a large renovation would force you to upgrade such things. In this case I would assume simply disallowing a gas stove without proper venting. Though I suspect the permitting process in NYC resembles something out of The Sopranos, assuming the proper permits were obtained.

If the videos that Louis Rossmann makes discussing New York's government mirror others' experiences, you are probably right.

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#28

Post by orra »

jrockway wrote: post #24
someonehere wrote: post #22

Berkeley attempted this and it was recently overturned: https://www.cbsnews.com/news/court-overturns-berkeley-califo... California's electric grid is in horrendous shape. We can barely keep the power on in the summertime, especially when wildfires happen. When the power is out, am I expected to start a fire in my yard to cook food? Fire up my JetBoil? My BBQ?

A bigger problem is getting a feed to your house that can handle your hot water heater, stove, washing machine, and electric car charging all at once. That's rather impractical in some areas, so there is some work to coordinate between the appliances so they can share a smaller feed. The way some stoves are participating is that they charge a battery at relatively low current all the time, and then cook from the batt…

> If that's your contingency plan, check that a safety valve doesn't close when power is lost.

And for good reason. Gas cookers require ventilation, to prevent carbon monoxide build up. An electric extractor fan won't work during a power cut.

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#29

Post by john_shafthair »

lesuorac wrote: post #21
gainda wrote: post #19

"In addition to the environmental concerns raised by such widespread use of natural gas, some health experts have also argued that using it in the home, especially when cooking, may pose a health risk to consumers." Spending a day walking around NYC is probably worse for my health than years of gas stove usage. Every time I leave the city I feel like I need a shower from all the grime and who knows what I feel caked…

The article is about a ban from the State not the City so I'm not too sure why the cleanliness of NYC matters.

[flagged]

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#30

Post by ryukafalz »

john_shafthair wrote: post #14
tamaharbor wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is the backup, resistance heating?

Electric resistance heat is super inefficient. That's why it's often referred to as "emergency heat". Ironically the best combo is a heat pump + natural gas furnace as a backup. Best of both worlds. But here we are making those illegal so we can pretend to save the planet.

> Electric resistance heat is super inefficient. That's why it's often referred to as "emergency heat".

Yes, which is why it only kicks in when the heat pump isn't enough. Which is not most of the year!

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