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New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

nytimes.com

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Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#161

Post by anonymouskimmer »

giantg2 wrote: post #111
peter422 wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Californians actually pay lower overall taxes compared to other states due to low property taxes. Also, my power in San Francisco has probably been out for no more than 6 hours over the last 10 years. I don't know how many 9s that is, but it's more than 1.

This seems to indicate otherwise https://www.prudential.com/financial-education/tax-burden-by...

Mileage varies a lot in California. A high-income single person who just bought a place is paying a lot more than an older couple who have lived in the same home for 4 decades.

To critique your link based on its footnotes:

> 1 Calculated based on “State Individual Income Tax Rates and Brackets for 2020” from the Tax Foundation and “Median Household Income by State: 2018 and 2019” according to the U.S. Census Bureau.

What is the distribution of households in each state by marital and dependent status?

> 2 Calculated based on “Property Taxes by State” from WalletHub and “Median Home Values Across the U.S.” from Experian.

Various propositions in California affect actual property taxes. In the chart in your link the property tax tax burden is shown the same for California and Texas based on Median income, but the actual property tax rate in Texas is almost double that in California (at least last I checked, a couple of years ago). Housing in California has just been more expensive compared to income, which is a con in affordabilty, but a pro in net worth for property owners (especially those who have owned for a long time, and thus pay lower taxes on their primary residence).

I've got nothing to say about the sales tax burden, except to wonder how much of the "per capita personal consumption expenditures" are taxable transactions, and how much aren't. I've got no clue here though.

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#162

Post by mschuster91 »

11235813213455 wrote: post #110
rgmerk wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, but the vast majority of the population of New York State lives in places where air source heat pumps work just fine. Air source heat pumps can be built to work down to at least -20 Fahrenheit[1]. That's equal to the coldest temperature on record in places like Buffalo and Albany. For those relatively few people living in places which get even colder than that, there's the option of either ground loop heat pumps…

can heat pumps use underground sources as a cold (summer) / hot (winter) source?

Yes, of course if they're bi-directional. And theoretically, you can also use excess renewable power to heat up the soil in summer and draw on that stored heat in winter.

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#163

Post by AbrahamParangi »

CardenB wrote: post #134
ihatepython wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

That’s a fallacy. You can make anything into a slippery slope.

It seems to me that every time people reference the slippery slope fallacy, the people claiming slippery slope get proven right 10 years down the line. Even in this case, banning gas in new buildings implies that gas will be banned in the future!

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#164

Post by WheatMillington »

andbberger wrote: post #89
hedora wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most people around here buy enough battery or generators to keep the power on. PG&E is way below one nine of availability this year, but the outlets inside our house are at 6 nines followed by an eight. Granted, once the propane rationing started, a few of our neighbors lost power for extended periods of time (weeks). The phone company doesn’t maintain internet if the power is out, but there is starlink, and fiber co…

[flagged]

Where I live in New Zealand, I haven't experienced a power cut in years, and in my entire life I've only ever experienced a handful of short power cuts. So when I hear about the California experience, it feels pretty third world to me.

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#165

Post by nucleardog »

JamisonM wrote: post #65
john_shafthair wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not when the power's out for days - as often happens in winter storms. You can run the blower and electronics of a natural gas furnace or boiler off a little camping generator for a week or even better a natural gas whole house unit in perpetuity. So you don't, you know, freeze to death.

"You can run the blower and electronics of a natural gas furnace or boiler off a little camping generator.." Likewise for a heat pump, right? Does this "power out for days after a winter storm" thing actually happen very often? I am from Manitoba and my worst-ever experience was 10-11 hours when it was very, very cold out in 35+ years.

> Does this "power out for days after a winter storm" thing actually happen very often?

Near Ottawa—in the past 12 months I’ve had an eight day outage, a four day outage, and a few day long outages.

We don’t need to survive the -40 or -50 of the prairies, but even with good insulation a -10 day in the spring makes the house pretty cold after a couple of days.

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#166

Post by hn_throwaway_99 »

I don't often like to take a "both sides" approach when assessing specific issues, but this one just seems to highlight the stupidity, or at the very least shortsightedness, of both sides.

On one hand, for those pushing for a ban, this seems largely performative, a la banning plastic straws. Gas is used for 2 main reasons: for cooking, where it represents a miniscule amount of overall energy use, and for heating, where, if what all the heat pump folks say is true, gas should fall out of favor vs. heat pumps eventually anyway. On the other side, I'm tired of the constant cries of "Muh Freedom!!!" in the face of any regulation that ignores the collective impact of not having any regulations.

Still, even for those who are gravely concerned about global warming, this feels like it will lead to a pyrrhic victory at best by making your average Joe more skeptical of government overreach. It seems like there could have been umpteen different types of government responses (e.g. support for heat pumps) that would have been better received by most folks compared to "we're banning something that a lot of people find useful and convenient".

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#167

Post by brianwawok »

0xdead8ead wrote: post #114
someonehere wrote: post #22

Berkeley attempted this and it was recently overturned: https://www.cbsnews.com/news/court-overturns-berkeley-califo... California's electric grid is in horrendous shape. We can barely keep the power on in the summertime, especially when wildfires happen. When the power is out, am I expected to start a fire in my yard to cook food? Fire up my JetBoil? My BBQ?

Eugene tried this as well. City council passed it without input from the community and is facing backlash. Since the 9th circuit decision, the ordinance has been called into question. https://www.bendbulletin.com/business/eugene-s-natural-gas-b... The community has since generated enough signatures to put the ban to a public vote that will be voted on in November. Anecdotally, I'd say, most my neighbors are against t…

My best source of heat is burning animals bones, can I be your neighbor?

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#168

Post by anonymouskimmer »

toxik wrote: post #152
hedora wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

$50-60K is enough to buy a backup system, and not much compared to the price of a house in this area.

$50-60K is more money than most people I know make per year.

Which is why "around here" is 65% renters, when "here" is San Francisco: https://thefrisc.com/sf-is-65-rental-households-but-knows-al...

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#169

Post by ourmandave »

rayiner wrote: post #17

And NPR told me that the possibility of gas stoves being banned was fake outrage: https://www.npr.org/2023/01/20/1150228734/the-facts-and-stra... .

Damn, if only Tucker Carlson were still around to tell me how I should feel about it.

And where to send the check.

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#170

Post by ApolloFortyNine »

seizethecheese wrote: post #120
mkinsella wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed. An induction cooktop and electric stove are far superior to gas.

Is this consensus opinion? I personally find gas to be far superior. It could be that I’ve used low quality electric.

No lol, until your average restaurant is all electric (it's not), it's very obviously not superior.

Induction is better but nothing really beats gas for speed to reach the desired heat level.

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