New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings • Hacker News Board

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#251

Post by gwbas1c » Sat, Apr 29, 2023, 8:35 PM UTC

tomp wrote: post #191

topaz0 wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A big part of the reason for banning gas is not energy but indoor pollution. There's pretty strong and growing evidence that cooking with gas leads to substantial health risks because of various combustion products that end up in your air (especially if not properly vented).

Are you a doctor? This one doctor (whom I probably trust the most of online doctors) disagrees. https://peterattiamd.com/putting-out-the-fire-on-the-gas-sto... > For example, the analysis included multiple studies that found an association between gas cooking and respiratory disease in children but variously failed to evaluate parental smoking habits, indoor smoke, pet ownership, or outdoor pollution as other possibl…

Indoor pollution from a gas stove has more to do with how the building was built.

Older construction leaks a lot more air than newer construction, primarily due to changes in code. More specifically, the air in an older home, from the 1980s, might change over every four hours or so. In a newer home built to modern building codes, it's eight or ten hours.

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#252

Post by 7speter » Sat, Apr 29, 2023, 8:38 PM UTC

8note wrote: post #234

hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The total effect on health seems rather debatable, and even if so there are better solutions (e.g. minimum ventilation requirements) for that. Total bans on products people use and can enjoy responsibility due to potential health risks is nearly always a bad idea in my opinion. Just look at smoking in the US, for example, which recently hit an all time low. We could have gone the prohibition route (and we can guess h…

This is not a total ban though? They aren't going to force the gas to be removed from current kitchens and heaters any time soon. There is a prohibition on smoking, kids aren't allowed to buy cigarettes

Theres a comment upthread championing this law because eventually government will ban all the miscreants who use gas powered appliances and heating from using them and using something much more hip and palatable to a subset of voters who can afford expensive house upgrades and electric cars at the snap of a finger.

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#253

Post by danans » Sat, Apr 29, 2023, 8:38 PM UTC

nuancebydefault wrote: post #217

Symbiote wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

American houses mostly have air conditioning, which is a huge load. We don't, and make better use of shades, awnings etc. European houses have had two or three decades of efficiency improvements made to everything, so we don't have the 5kW clothes dryers mentioned above.

Maybe this is a bit of a tangent but... shouldn't the world as a whole not be thinking about how to consume less in stead of obsessing with how to do the clean energy transition, without changing our habits a bit? If you think about it, there is still plenty of room for optimizing our energy consumption. The trend seems to be, replace the gasoline car not with a more fuel efficient one but rather with a car weighing…

> Car pooling.

> Electric bicycles

> Insulate your house better?

> Taking turns with neighbours to do grocery shopping or bringing kids to school.

> Try to repair stuff in stead of bying new.

> Drying clothes with renewable wind energy. (a hanging rack)

People do these things anyways with the right incentives, just to save time and money.

But we still need to get off of fossil fuels for transportation and electricity generation if we want to avoid the worst climate change scenarios.

The reality is that people really value convenience, and we have to find sustainable ways of delivering that. That might mean a great electric bus system, EVs, community thrift exchanges, etc

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#254

Post by rhaway84773 » Sat, Apr 29, 2023, 8:39 PM UTC

hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #166

I don't often like to take a "both sides" approach when assessing specific issues, but this one just seems to highlight the stupidity, or at the very least shortsightedness, of both sides. On one hand, for those pushing for a ban, this seems largely performative, a la banning plastic straws. Gas is used for 2 main reasons: for cooking, where it represents a miniscule amount of overall energy use, and for heating, whe…

People are misrepresenting this.

No one is banning gas. You can go ahead and buy a gas stove and use it.

What you cannot do is expect buildings to install piping throughout the building, the gas provider to provide infrastructure to supply that building with gas, and get the gas out of a tap.

The vast majority of the world in fact does not have gas coming out of a tap because it’s not profitable. The U.S. has it almost entirely because of regulation thst requires it to be provided, which has now baked in expectation among homeowners that it will be there. This expectation leads to buildings paying extra to supply gas at exorbitant costs so their homes don’t feel less luxury than an equivalent competitor.

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#255

Post by rhaway84773 » Sat, Apr 29, 2023, 8:41 PM UTC

The reactions to the gas hookup ban really reminds me of how insular Americans really are.

They can’t even imagine a world where gas does not come in pipes, when arguably that’s how the vast majority of the world lives.

You want a gas stove? Buy a gas stove, and get a cylinder. No one is stopping you from doing that.

Just don’t expect everyone else to subsidize running that gas in a pipe up to your gas stove.

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#256

Post by toast0 » Sat, Apr 29, 2023, 8:41 PM UTC

hedora wrote: post #223

brianwawok wrote: post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My whole house natural gas generator was closer to 10k and 5-10k install. Provides like 90 amps. Good for all the storms around here. I just turn off my hot tub and EV charging and I can do anything else including AC.

That works if you have natural gas service. My estimate assumes solar panels, batteries and a generator that tops the battery off in emergencies. This year, most people with just batteries lost power due to no sun, and people with just generators lost power due to no propane delivery service/supply.

Most natural gas generators are orderable for propane. Propane delivery is available most places, although you also need to find a place for the tank. It's more convenient to have fuel delivered via pipeline, but somewhat less resilient (although I personally don't have any experience with outages of utility natural gas, it is a possibility).

Based on the one ~ 3 day outage I had, my whole house generator's tank is good for probably close to two weeks, although if it were very hot or very cold, that might change. I have a portable generator for my well, that one runs on gasoline and doesn't sip fuel, I'd probably just run it for a few minutes twice a day (did not have that generator during the 3 day outage... we were just stinky)

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#257

Post by gwbas1c » Sat, Apr 29, 2023, 8:42 PM UTC

lumb63 wrote: post #193

hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #166

I don't often like to take a "both sides" approach when assessing specific issues, but this one just seems to highlight the stupidity, or at the very least shortsightedness, of both sides. On one hand, for those pushing for a ban, this seems largely performative, a la banning plastic straws. Gas is used for 2 main reasons: for cooking, where it represents a miniscule amount of overall energy use, and for heating, whe…

+1 regarding cooking gas being a minuscule amount of gas usage overall. And not to mention, gas is still the first choice for most serious cooks, so the small benefit comes at relatively large cost to lifestyle. Regarding heat pumps phasing out gas heat, in NY it isn’t feasible. It gets too cold. In more temperate climates, sure, but in the northern US and further, there will be a need for on-demand heat for a long t…

> Regarding heat pumps phasing out gas heat, in NY it isn’t feasible. It gets too cold

I live in MA and heat my whole house with a heat pump. It works fine. I have an electric strip for backup.

My house (and heat pump) are five years old. The newer ones are better; Lennox's new model can work in Upstate New York without a backup heat source: https://www.energy.gov/articles/doe-announces-breakthrough-r...

(I will admit that I have a gas stove in my basement to handle power outages, a gas stove, and a gas grill. I will also admit that I really, really regret installing a gas stove and will switch to an induction stove when it's time to replace the stove.)

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#258

Post by [deleted] » Sat, Apr 29, 2023, 8:42 PM UTC

jablongo wrote: post #202

lumb63 wrote: post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

+1 regarding cooking gas being a minuscule amount of gas usage overall. And not to mention, gas is still the first choice for most serious cooks, so the small benefit comes at relatively large cost to lifestyle. Regarding heat pumps phasing out gas heat, in NY it isn’t feasible. It gets too cold. In more temperate climates, sure, but in the northern US and further, there will be a need for on-demand heat for a long t…

> Regarding heat pumps phasing out gas heat, in NY it isn’t feasible. It gets too cold. Not true, heat pumps are widely used as primary heat sources in environments as cold or colder than NY, like in Montreal and other parts of Canada. The take that heat pump tech only works in very moderate temperatures is stale at this point.

[deleted]

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#259

Post by bitexploder » Sat, Apr 29, 2023, 8:42 PM UTC

lumb63 wrote: post #213

LazyMans wrote: post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is not too cold in New York for heat pumps. With 20 year old technology yes, it would have required supplemental heat. Not anymore though, not until you get down around -25/-30f, at that point a resistive heater kicks in to assist.

Perhaps I worded my comment incorrectly. Yes, heat pumps can work in New York. But, a backup heat system in that climate would be prudent.

We live in Denver and saw -10, -15 this winter. Our heat pump is 100% efficient down to -10, and still reasonably efficient at -25. Our whole house is on it. No gas.

Re: New York to ban natural gas, including stoves, in new buildings

#260

Post by danans » Sat, Apr 29, 2023, 8:43 PM UTC

nostrademons wrote: post #149

danans wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> (For us, that process cost about 3 years and $10K. They ran a wire 6 feet from an existing transformer to a pole we had to install ourselves). Must have been a while ago because in 2021 they charged me $0 (not a typo) to go from 100A to 200A. It took just a month or so to arrange.

It depends a lot on your existing service. For many homes the wire is already rated for 200A, and you just need a new main panel. In those cases the utility charges you $0. On the other end of the spectrum, some homes have buried power lines where they need to dig up the street and driveway to run a new higher-rated cable to your home, and I've heard of those costing upwards of $50K.

In my case I needed a new wire drop, but it's still didn't cost me anything. The panel upgrade was very pricey though.