Kiwi Farms is down across all domains as DDoS-Guard terminates service • Hacker News Board

Re: Kiwi Farms is down across all domains as DDoS-Guard terminates service

#601

Post by Febra33 » Mon, Sep 05, 2022, 7:48 PM UTC

deepcyanide wrote: post #158

Is it too early to say the internet is done for because it's looking that way to me. keffals has given the government the recipe to kill off any website they want gone. I'm hearing that keffals creatures are now attacking TOR to get them to drop kiwi too. This isn't going to stop, 4chan is definitely next then every other site that isn't mainstream.

How is the government involved in the decision made by a private company? I fail to see the point you're trying to make here. Also, I seriously doubt that Keffals is influencing the entire "government" (what country are we even talking about). Also, "attacking TOR"? Do you know by any chance how TOR works?

Re: Kiwi Farms is down across all domains as DDoS-Guard terminates service

#602

Post by viridian » Mon, Sep 05, 2022, 7:49 PM UTC

irthomasthomas wrote: post #273

I didn't know about this site until yesterday. After reading the thread that got them took down, I know one thing, I will not be letting my children near discord. I mean, if this is how people act in public[0], I hate to imagine what kind of stuff they are doing in a private discord, away from parents prying eyes. There's no heroes in this story. [0] Bathtub hormones being sold to minors in bright packaging featuring…

This sentiment towards not just discord, but the entire internet, is becoming increasingly common for a reason. I regret my time spent on the internet more and more with each passing day, and I've heard similar sentiments pop up like a shepard's tone in the dad's group I'm in.

Every parent wants their kids lives to be better than theirs were, for our parents, that meant things like not smoking and making sure your kids go to college. For the current generation, it's making sure they don't turn into dopamine addicts chasing an endless stream of outage and temporary group acknowledgement.

Re: Kiwi Farms is down across all domains as DDoS-Guard terminates service

#603

Post by borski » Mon, Sep 05, 2022, 7:49 PM UTC

akira2501 wrote: post #571

borski wrote: post #521

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Under current First Amendment jurisprudence, hate speech can only be criminalized when it directly incites imminent criminal activity or consists of specific threats of violence targeted against a person or group. Kiwi Farms absolutely incited imminent criminal activity (harassment, among other things) and made lots of specific threats against specifically targeted people and groups. This is a false equivalence.

> when it directly incites imminent criminal activity or consists of specific threats of violence targeted against a person or group Aren't these already crimes? Isn't the "hate crime" charge just a way to enhance the sentencing for someone thus convicted? And isn't the original charge required for this enhancement? Thus, mere "hate speech" in and of itself cannot be a crime? > Kiwi Farms absolutely incited imminent…

1. Yes, those are already crimes. You were making the claim that hate speech is never illegal. I was clarifying that there are caveats that take what would otherwise be free speech and turn them into actual crimes.

2. You don’t have to accept it prima facie. Go read the forums, they’re still up on Tor. Fair warning, I have, and they’re horrid.

3. Not when the mods and owners of KF are engaging in the very same. I do not know if law enforcement is looking into individual users or KF itself, but that’s not what we’re discussing. We are discussing the rights of a private company to not give a platform to a group of people they believe are committing or engaging in potentially criminal activity. CF doesn’t have to prove it. If CF is wrong, KF is welcome to find support elsewhere. Good luck.

Re: Kiwi Farms is down across all domains as DDoS-Guard terminates service

#604

Post by moomin » Mon, Sep 05, 2022, 7:50 PM UTC

tsimionescu wrote: post #515

moomin wrote: post #256

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You seem to be under the impression most crimes are prosecuted. Very few are, because, amongst many other things, the police do not exist to protect citizens.

So why not try to do something about the police, and instead focusing on Cloud Flare. Surely there are many more important crimes that Cloud Flare can't help with, and that the police could if it were forced by people to act as it is supposed to. Also, have any of the people complaining about this on the internet actually filed complaints with the police/procesutor's office? Have they even attempted to follow the leg…

I know you’re asking questions rhetorically, but these questions have straightforward answers that contradict your thesis. Read Zoe Quinn sometime.

Re: Kiwi Farms is down across all domains as DDoS-Guard terminates service

#605

Post by fullstop » Mon, Sep 05, 2022, 7:50 PM UTC

cowtools wrote: post #359

fullstop wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not here to define hate speech, and I think that you'd agree that HN was not designed to encourage and promote hate speech. You absolutely can not say the same thing of Kiwifarms. Let's not be deliberately obtuse here.

So you want to enforce restrictions on hate speech, but you have no clear boundary as to what "hate speech" really is?

Keep reading, but here's the crux of the matter:

HN was made to discuss tech topics. KF was made to harass and doxx a specific target.

I'm not here to explicitly define "hate speech", but I think that we can agree that KF has crossed that line into hate speech.

Unless you're cool with encouraging harassment and doxxing, that is.

Re: Kiwi Farms is down across all domains as DDoS-Guard terminates service

#606

Post by philippejara » Mon, Sep 05, 2022, 7:50 PM UTC

ajross wrote: post #490

philippejara wrote: post #454

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is not reddit, calm down on the snark and try to actually have a discussion if you're gonna go for it. Its easy to say those things for someone you dislike, but zoom out and look at the implications, you have a campaign pretty much asking cloudflare to stand aside and allow them to do DDOS attacks on a website which apparently won several lawsuits against them already(ill dig up the sources a bit later on when I…

> Maybe kiwifarms is all people say they are "All people say they are" is a site running coordinated harassment campaigns, including SWATing and bomb threats, though. Those are clear crimes. You can't seriously be arguing that CloudFlare or DDos-Guard or whoever shouldn't be allowed to choose not to do business with that sort of thing, can you? Like so many others here[1], your perception thing seems to be based sole…

My friend i've been trying to get some archive links or anything that shows any real evidence of swatting from the website, which seemed at the time to be completely open and freely archive-able and yet it's like trying to pull water out of a stone. Furthermore you have articles like the one from the AP[0] straight up saying: "They gang up on victims and pool their personal details such as addresses and phone numbers in a practice called “doxxing,” spreading vile rumors and targeting workplaces, friends, families and homes. Another favorite tactic has been “swatting” — making false emergency calls to provoke an armed police response at a target’s home. " Without any evidence of it anywhere, surely if a public open forum had been so infamous for swatting someone as to be described as "another favorite tactic" there would be a paper trail? And that's pretty much all the articles I've read.

I'm not even being given a chance to use my personal judgement to evaluate the evidence because there doesn't seem to be evidence?

My original post in this thread already addresses the matter regarding it being CloudFlare's judgment in the end.

[0]: https://apnews.com/article/technology-gay-rights-7d64f7b7173...

Re: Kiwi Farms is down across all domains as DDoS-Guard terminates service

#607

Post by judge2020 » Mon, Sep 05, 2022, 7:50 PM UTC

phantom_of_cato wrote: post #587

nickdothutton wrote: post #576

I’m continually surprised that Facebook, Twitter, and the rest dont simply create a web interface for law enforcement that allows them to delete (or more likely make invisible) content they want to censor. Noting in place of the post or tweet or whatever “law enforcement in your jurisdiction has deemed this post illegal and have hidden it for your safety”. There’s a culture war afoot, the government wants to insert i…

> I’m continually surprised that Facebook, Twitter, and the rest dont simply create a web interface for law enforcement that allows them to delete (or more likely make invisible) content they want to censor. In the US, we have the First Amendment, which prohibits government censorship. Of course, the government still sometimes uses political pressure to censor things, but there's a need to keep a semblance of rule of…

Actually, if Twitter et al. want to provide the tools to block arbitrary content, they can do that just fine - companies can speak with the police and follow their wishes regardless of the first amendment because Twitter's own protected speech allows them to block any content for any reason, whether that be "it violated our content on harassment" or "the police don't like it and we're voluntarily following their wishes".

Re: Kiwi Farms is down across all domains as DDoS-Guard terminates service

#608

Post by irthomasthomas » Mon, Sep 05, 2022, 7:51 PM UTC

tyrust wrote: post #542

irthomasthomas wrote: post #459

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Missing the point entirely. That forum was public. The discord servers, where unknown adults are advising teenagers on sexuality and DIY hormone therapy is private.

It's not really clear what your point is. Surely you aren't saying that your strategy is to allow your kids on any online site as long as it's public, but that's the only clarification you've provided here.

Have you actually read about what they where doing in that private - no parents allowed - discord server? I'd love to link you to the actual content, but I can't, because it's private. You will have to read the tweets from the owner describing it in her own words, which is in the link that is the subject of this thread.

Re: Kiwi Farms is down across all domains as DDoS-Guard terminates service

#609

Post by dmatech » Mon, Sep 05, 2022, 7:51 PM UTC

borski wrote: post #521

akira2501 wrote: post #466

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also, DDoS is a crime. Saying racist things isn't. We shouldn't blur the line here.

Under current First Amendment jurisprudence, hate speech can only be criminalized when it directly incites imminent criminal activity or consists of specific threats of violence targeted against a person or group. Kiwi Farms absolutely incited imminent criminal activity (harassment, among other things) and made lots of specific threats against specifically targeted people and groups. This is a false equivalence.

Inciting harassment might be someone telling everyone to order pizzas and send them to an address. It wouldn't be posting a picture of someone's house with no context. While that might facilitate harassment, it doesn't actually incite it.

Re: Kiwi Farms is down across all domains as DDoS-Guard terminates service

#610

Post by fortran77 » Mon, Sep 05, 2022, 7:51 PM UTC

treis wrote: post #476

fortran77 wrote: post #396

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I see a lot of vile speech directed toward me on Hacker News.

Can you give examples?

People calling for my people and my nation to be wiped off the map. (And I don't try to get Hacker News blocked by their ISP or cache provider. I understand that an open forum will have speech like this.)