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Kiwi Farms is down across all domains as DDoS-Guard terminates service

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Re: Kiwi Farms is down across all domains as DDoS-Guard terminates service

#571

Post by akira2501 »

borski wrote: post #521
akira2501 wrote: post #466

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also, DDoS is a crime. Saying racist things isn't. We shouldn't blur the line here.

Under current First Amendment jurisprudence, hate speech can only be criminalized when it directly incites imminent criminal activity or consists of specific threats of violence targeted against a person or group. Kiwi Farms absolutely incited imminent criminal activity (harassment, among other things) and made lots of specific threats against specifically targeted people and groups. This is a false equivalence.

> when it directly incites imminent criminal activity or consists of specific threats of violence targeted against a person or group

Aren't these already crimes? Isn't the "hate crime" charge just a way to enhance the sentencing for someone thus convicted? And isn't the original charge required for this enhancement? Thus, mere "hate speech" in and of itself cannot be a crime?

> Kiwi Farms absolutely incited imminent criminal activity

According to you and some twitter threads. I'm not comfortable accepting this prima facie, though.

> This is a false equivalence.

Does Section 230 not apply to Kiwi Farms? Is Kiwi Farms actually guilty of crimes here, or is it specific forum users? If so, why are there no efforts to go after the users but just go directly to banning the entire site?

Re: Kiwi Farms is down across all domains as DDoS-Guard terminates service

#572

Post by ranger_danger »

weare138 wrote: post #215
that_guy_iain wrote: post #45

The thing is, it's hard to feel bad for kiwifarms. They seem to be one of the worst sites there are. But freedom of speech/expression/opinions aren't about defending those who speech/expression/opinions you like but all of them. Personally, I think the site being shutdown is a good thing. But it's hard to look at the fact a few corporations can remove a website from the internet and think this is good for a free and…

3 people are dead because of that site. What they were doing was a crime. Criminal activity is not is not protected free speech. That's like arguing carding and SIM swapping sites are just expressing their right to free speech and should be protected.

if you think the fault lies with the website and the posters won't just use some other website (plenty of death threats on twitter are still up)... you are sorely uninformed.

Re: Kiwi Farms is down across all domains as DDoS-Guard terminates service

#573

Post by prvit »

theptip wrote: post #450
prvit wrote: post #365

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wonder if he's actually so delusional to think that he's got the power to decide what goes on the internet, or if this is just something Cloudflare marketing is trying to push to make them seem like the only option anyone could possibly work with.

Isn’t the simplest read on that statement “there should be legislation that means nobody has this power”? Basically, something like “if it’s legal I’ll do it, but I don’t think it should be legal”. This is kind of dubious as a basic ethical position (if you think it’s bad just don’t do it) but note that it’s not entirely ridiculous as if it’s legal, others can and will pressure you to do it. Whereas if you cede the r…

Nobody has this kind of power, you can easily switch to another provider. If literally nobody wants to work with you, then ...

>Whereas if you cede the right to do a thing

Perhaps we shouldn't be hurrying to get rid of freedom of association.

Re: Kiwi Farms is down across all domains as DDoS-Guard terminates service

#574

Post by not_a_shill »

prvit wrote: post #72
flumpcakes wrote: post #56

I personally have never seen any content on Kiwifarms that would lead to statements as we saw the other day from Cloudflare. It is a place where people say some horrible stuff, but I think 4chan is worse (including CSAM) and they are protected by Cloudflare as far as I know. I don't know much about the people who post there, other than that they say some nasty things. I have also seen such content on Facebook and Twi…

How is 4chan worse? They rapidly take down any CSAM and anything that vaguely resembles a raid. Most KF threads wouldn't survive on today's 4chan for even an hour. This 12 years old comment describes the situation in 2010 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1947648 , although neglects to mention that things were this way due to strict moderation on 4chan.

>How is 4chan worse?

/pol/ is far worse from a "hate speech" perspective, but not as nearly as bad when it comes to serial harassment.

From a "people are in imminent danger" perspective I don't see how 4chan isn't worse. Remember "Some of you guys are alright, don't come to school tomorrow" from a few years back? Is there an equivalent to that on KF that I'm not aware of? The people there have given up on life in a completely different way than edgy board 4chan users.

Re: Kiwi Farms is down across all domains as DDoS-Guard terminates service

#575

Post by jakelazaroff »

dmatech wrote: post #549
that_guy_iain wrote: post #45

The thing is, it's hard to feel bad for kiwifarms. They seem to be one of the worst sites there are. But freedom of speech/expression/opinions aren't about defending those who speech/expression/opinions you like but all of them. Personally, I think the site being shutdown is a good thing. But it's hard to look at the fact a few corporations can remove a website from the internet and think this is good for a free and…

This has all the hallmarks of an overreaction to a moral panic, not a rational response to the actual evidence. People become incredibly sure of their positions and don't even want to look at the evidence, but to be honest, the evidence doesn't matter, because people won't be persuaded by it anyway given the stress level and strong emotions. Is the internet a better place without this site? Who knows. But that's not…

I mean, this is a site with a body count. How many people do you think hid themselves from the public, or guarded what they said online or had to be suspicious of mundane interactions for fear of being targeted? Why is their freedom of speech less important than Kiwi Farms’?

As for looking at the evidence: all I can say is that I’ve glanced through Kiwi Farms a couple of times over the years when people spoke up about being targeted by them, and it is abundantly clear to even a casual observer that this was a community built with the intention of stalking and intimidating people.

Re: Kiwi Farms is down across all domains as DDoS-Guard terminates service

#576

Post by nickdothutton »

I’m continually surprised that Facebook, Twitter, and the rest dont simply create a web interface for law enforcement that allows them to delete (or more likely make invisible) content they want to censor. Noting in place of the post or tweet or whatever “law enforcement in your jurisdiction has deemed this post illegal and have hidden it for your safety”.

There’s a culture war afoot, the government wants to insert itself between the warring parties, there’s no need for executives to place their (their shareholders) company in the way. “Let the dog see the rabbit” as they say. Just harvest the energy in the system and monetise it, if that’s your mission.

Re: Kiwi Farms is down across all domains as DDoS-Guard terminates service

#577

Post by roi »

_-david-_ wrote: post #392
WastingMyTime89 wrote: post #373

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the future of the internet seems pretty sad... That’s frankly terrible. Sites infamous for promoting harassment can’t be hosted anymore. Clearly a tremendous loss for the internet. /s

What happens if another site that you consider completely legitimate can't be hosted just because others think it is not acceptable? Maybe your views are currently acceptable, but will they be in 5, 10, 20 years?

This argument can't persuade those who never have any views of their own and always adopt the currently acceptable ones.

Re: Kiwi Farms is down across all domains as DDoS-Guard terminates service

#578

Post by hecatoncheires »

squeaky-clean wrote: post #473
hecatoncheires wrote: post #295

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Whoop tee doo. I've seen dozens of livestreamed murders on Instagram Live and Facebook Live. Reddit has /r/chiraqology where there are hundreds of videos of gang bangers and drill rappers beefing with each other and shooting at each other, and commenters celebrate the lifestyle and keep detailed ontologies of it all. Nobody is talking about nuking any of these platforms from existence just because of some isolated il…

Reddit nukes hate subs weekly. They're slow to get to it, but they do it. As far as Facebook live and Instagram live, those platforms weren't made with the sole purpose of harassing and doxxing people. Neither is reddit. When they find communities that promote those things they do take them down. Their moderation is slow and overwhelmed, but don't pretend Facebook encourages murders on live streams. KiwiFarms does en…

Wrong, Reddit explicitly allows hate speech against white people because it follows the nouveau definition of "racism" not including whites. There's a Reddit admin response to repeated requests to ban /r/FragileWhiteRedditor somewhere that outlines this.

> KiwiFarms does encourage everything that happens on it

Wrong. The admin, Null, has explicitly said they don't allow doxxing or swatting and complies with law enforcement

> If you're going to take a strawman this far, blame the cellphone and camera manufacturers involved in those live streams. As well as the landlord who owned the building it happened in. And any restaurants that serve them, can't murder if you don't eat.

That's cute but what you're describing as absurd is basically what Keffals et al are doing with this website by hounding every service they tangentially use to get them banned. If they could make the site operator unbankable or unable to receive postal mail it's pretty obvious they gladly would

Re: Kiwi Farms is down across all domains as DDoS-Guard terminates service

#579

Post by anigbrowl »

cowtools wrote: post #395
johnklos wrote: post #360

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's because Cloudflare actively protects these bad actors. They host DNS, they host proxy services, and they hide identifying information from WHOIS. They say they won't listen to anything short of a court order, so now we have to convene juries and get indictments to get Cloudflare to do anything at all. Cloudflare is playing a big game. Comparing Cloudflare protecting bad actors to the water company providing wate…

Quoted post unavailable.

Does the KKK use water cannons to hose people down? No. Any benefit KKK members derive from having running water is incidental to their KKK activities. Likewise if some terrorist is watching Netflix to unwind it's not furthering their terrorist activities specifically.

On the other hand, multiple groups of people have targeted Netflix for producing or promoting content that those people find offensive, which is a different situation from providing content.

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