Kiwi Farms is down across all domains as DDoS-Guard terminates service • Hacker News Board

Re: Kiwi Farms is down across all domains as DDoS-Guard terminates service

#521

Post by borski » Mon, Sep 05, 2022, 7:28 PM UTC

akira2501 wrote: post #466

mikl wrote: post #453

Earlier quoted context omitted.

DDoS’ing is quite different from just turning your back on someone. It’s more akin to following someone around with a megaphone and shouting over everything they say so no one can hear them. Sure, you might celebrate when that’s done to someone you dislike, but a lot less appealing if you imagine it done to a cause you agree with.

Also, DDoS is a crime. Saying racist things isn't. We shouldn't blur the line here.

Under current First Amendment jurisprudence, hate speech can only be criminalized when it directly incites imminent criminal activity or consists of specific threats of violence targeted against a person or group.

Kiwi Farms absolutely incited imminent criminal activity (harassment, among other things) and made lots of specific threats against specifically targeted people and groups.

This is a false equivalence.

Re: Kiwi Farms is down across all domains as DDoS-Guard terminates service

#522

Post by charcircuit » Mon, Sep 05, 2022, 7:28 PM UTC

ChicagoDave wrote: post #469

ivraatiems wrote: post #390

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did you ever watch 12 Angry Men ? There's a scene in that movie where an unabashedly racist man is making his point as loudly and angrily as he can. One by one, all the others in the room turn their backs on him. When only one man is left, that man has a short message for the racist: "Sit down, and don't open your mouth again while I'm here." Nobody puts him in jail. Nobody takes away his right to make a living or hi…

I don't know the entire history here, but my understanding is that KF was a forum where doxing and swatting was openly pervasive. Sounds like a perfect example of society holding a site accountable and producing the correct outcome. There was no government involved, so it's not a "free speech" issue. I always talk about the wild west of the late 90's when the Internet was brand new. My colleagues and I all talked abo…

No post body was provided.

Re: Kiwi Farms is down across all domains as DDoS-Guard terminates service

#523

Post by cowtools » Mon, Sep 05, 2022, 7:28 PM UTC

ChicagoDave wrote: post #469

ivraatiems wrote: post #390

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did you ever watch 12 Angry Men ? There's a scene in that movie where an unabashedly racist man is making his point as loudly and angrily as he can. One by one, all the others in the room turn their backs on him. When only one man is left, that man has a short message for the racist: "Sit down, and don't open your mouth again while I'm here." Nobody puts him in jail. Nobody takes away his right to make a living or hi…

I don't know the entire history here, but my understanding is that KF was a forum where doxing and swatting was openly pervasive. Sounds like a perfect example of society holding a site accountable and producing the correct outcome. There was no government involved, so it's not a "free speech" issue. I always talk about the wild west of the late 90's when the Internet was brand new. My colleagues and I all talked abo…

Free speech is more than just an amendment to the constitution. It is also a doctrine that knowledge and discussion should generally be free, and that people shouldn't be persecuted for their beliefs.

It used to be that all forums had pervasive doxxing and swatting. People didn't use to have public internet identities like they do today- probably because there wasn't any way to profit from owning a public identity or from harvesting the data of others. Maybe people don't remember that since reddit (and others) ate up all the small forums and made them advertiser friendly.

One of these "sketchy ways to make money" is to abuse the networks with DDoS attacks and racketeering- on either the protection side (CloudFlare, etc.) or the offensive side (botnets, etc.)

Re: Kiwi Farms is down across all domains as DDoS-Guard terminates service

#524

Post by waffle_ss » Mon, Sep 05, 2022, 7:28 PM UTC

ivraatiems wrote: post #390

philippejara wrote: post #336

Kiwifarm's owner statement: https://web.archive.org/web/20220905182626/https://poa.st/no... This whole thing is kinda fascinating, if not extremely scary. After learning about the situation from the last couple threads here and going down the rabbit hole of sources, the future of the internet seems pretty sad... If cloudflare doesn't reinstate the website after dealing with said immediate danger they claimed was the…

Did you ever watch 12 Angry Men ? There's a scene in that movie where an unabashedly racist man is making his point as loudly and angrily as he can. One by one, all the others in the room turn their backs on him. When only one man is left, that man has a short message for the racist: "Sit down, and don't open your mouth again while I'm here." Nobody puts him in jail. Nobody takes away his right to make a living or hi…

> And in the United States, we don't

We don't? Didn't Zuckerberg just admit on Joe Rogan that during the last election all the major media companies were briefed by feds that were was a big "misinformation" news piece incoming, so that when the Hunter Biden laptop story finally dropped, they all censored it, sight unseen? Therefore it seems all the big social media tech companies have no problem with rubberstamping gov't requests for censorship.

They almost made it glaringly obvious when they tried to roll out their Disinformation Governance Board, which fell flat.

Re: Kiwi Farms is down across all domains as DDoS-Guard terminates service

#525

Post by JumpCrisscross » Mon, Sep 05, 2022, 7:28 PM UTC

ChicagoDave wrote: post #469

ivraatiems wrote: post #390

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did you ever watch 12 Angry Men ? There's a scene in that movie where an unabashedly racist man is making his point as loudly and angrily as he can. One by one, all the others in the room turn their backs on him. When only one man is left, that man has a short message for the racist: "Sit down, and don't open your mouth again while I'm here." Nobody puts him in jail. Nobody takes away his right to make a living or hi…

I don't know the entire history here, but my understanding is that KF was a forum where doxing and swatting was openly pervasive. Sounds like a perfect example of society holding a site accountable and producing the correct outcome. There was no government involved, so it's not a "free speech" issue. I always talk about the wild west of the late 90's when the Internet was brand new. My colleagues and I all talked abo…

> was no government involved, so it's not a "free speech" issue

Nitpick: it is a free speech issue. It’s just not a First Amendment concern.

Your broader point stands: rights must balance; it’s perfectly fair for the freedom of assembly to peacefully balance someone freedom of speech.

Re: Kiwi Farms is down across all domains as DDoS-Guard terminates service

#526

Post by akira2501 » Mon, Sep 05, 2022, 7:29 PM UTC

tw04 wrote: post #246

that_guy_iain wrote: post #45

The thing is, it's hard to feel bad for kiwifarms. They seem to be one of the worst sites there are. But freedom of speech/expression/opinions aren't about defending those who speech/expression/opinions you like but all of them. Personally, I think the site being shutdown is a good thing. But it's hard to look at the fact a few corporations can remove a website from the internet and think this is good for a free and…

> But freedom of speech/expression/opinions aren't about defending those who speech/expression/opinions you like but all of them. The fallacy of tolerance. This isn’t about supporting or not supporting a certain ideology, it’s about perpetuating real world violence. I don’t know and don’t care if kiwifarms is “liberal” or “conservative”. What I do know is they’re terrorizing and perpetuating violence upon people in t…

What I would prefer is that they have a day in court. Even this twitter thread tries to make the case that these aren't "criminals" effecting the DDoS, but rather they should be viewed as "victims."

I'm entirely uncomfortable with the lack of due process and the easy justifications of vigilantism simply because some people perceive the site in a particular way.

Re: Kiwi Farms is down across all domains as DDoS-Guard terminates service

#527

Post by not_a_shill » Mon, Sep 05, 2022, 7:29 PM UTC

redeeman wrote: post #418

cowtools wrote: post #376

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Since when is "doxxing" a crime? I'm told that the new york times has "doxxed" people on numerous occasions. Should they get taken down?

they doxxed a twitter user causing that user to face credible life threats and had to evacuate and go into hiding.. but they are a-okay naturally

How was it determined that the life threats were credible? If they were *actually* credible I'd imagine Keffals is gonna end up dead pretty soon given the escalation of attacks on KF.

But they're not credible and nothing will happen.

Re: Kiwi Farms is down across all domains as DDoS-Guard terminates service

#528

Post by ratsmack » Mon, Sep 05, 2022, 7:30 PM UTC

pxeger1 wrote: post #409

neonsunset wrote: post #334

The problem with salem witch trials du jour so fervently pushed by certain groups of people is closing to its demise with every case like this. The advantage of emotionally immature people (regardless of their actual age) having too much time on their hands forcing their narrative and banning any discourse that they don't like will eventually cease when the majority of people will realize that they are, well, in a ma…

(I'm inferring that your comment is supporting KiwiFarms. If this is not the case, you should probably re-word it.) > salem witch trials du jour so fervently pushed by certain groups of people Hunting trans people and pushing them to suicide sounds like much more of a witch trial to me. > forcing their narrative and banning any discourse that they don't like Telling to people to kill themselves is "discourse" that we…

Supporting Kiwi Farms right to exist is not the same as supporting the content.

Re: Kiwi Farms is down across all domains as DDoS-Guard terminates service

#529

Post by Snetry » Mon, Sep 05, 2022, 7:30 PM UTC

deepcyanide wrote: post #167

DFHippie wrote: post #131

This, I think, is a useful perspective for all those here talking about free speech: https://slate.com/technology/2022/09/kiwi-farms-cloudlfare-a... The point is that if you're using your speech to silence people, not by disproving their arguments but through terror and the destruction of their reputation and social network, when you silence people by lying about them, your speech is a threat to free speech. By prote…

I don't see kiwifarms trying to silence keffals, I 100% see the reverse happening unless archiving keffals public statement about giving children drugs you aren't authorized to provide to anyone is somehow censorship.

You can support a cause without supporting people related to it

Re: Kiwi Farms is down across all domains as DDoS-Guard terminates service

#530

Post by Cyberdog » Mon, Sep 05, 2022, 7:30 PM UTC

ChicagoDave wrote: post #469

ivraatiems wrote: post #390

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did you ever watch 12 Angry Men ? There's a scene in that movie where an unabashedly racist man is making his point as loudly and angrily as he can. One by one, all the others in the room turn their backs on him. When only one man is left, that man has a short message for the racist: "Sit down, and don't open your mouth again while I'm here." Nobody puts him in jail. Nobody takes away his right to make a living or hi…

I don't know the entire history here, but my understanding is that KF was a forum where doxing and swatting was openly pervasive. Sounds like a perfect example of society holding a site accountable and producing the correct outcome. There was no government involved, so it's not a "free speech" issue. I always talk about the wild west of the late 90's when the Internet was brand new. My colleagues and I all talked abo…

No post body was provided.