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Kiwi Farms is down across all domains as DDoS-Guard terminates service

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Re: Kiwi Farms is down across all domains as DDoS-Guard terminates service

#251

Post by true_religion »

drexlspivey wrote: post #235
weare138 wrote: post #215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

3 people are dead because of that site. What they were doing was a crime. Criminal activity is not is not protected free speech. That's like arguing carding and SIM swapping sites are just expressing their right to free speech and should be protected.

What doesn’t make sense to me is why is Cloudflare harassed for providing an utility to some bad actors while other traditional providers aren’t? Is Comcast getting any flak for providing internet to the KKK offices? Or their water provider? Is Netflix getting any complains for providing entertainment to terrorists? Or vodafone for mobile connectivity? Why is it different for cloudflare?

Netflix theoretically can’t provide entertainment to known terrorizes because KYC rules would prevent them from being able to pay for it.

Comcast must provide service as part of the agreement to give them local monopoly privilege.

The water company where I am is the government so they are forced to provide service because of the 1st amendment.

Vodafone similarly bought public airspace and it came with rules. I wonder if they can pick and choose their customers.

Cloudflare though is just a regular company. They provide a service, but there is nothing restricting them from banning people. It’s like how Google can ban you for almost no reason.

Re: Kiwi Farms is down across all domains as DDoS-Guard terminates service

#252

Post by moomin »

that_guy_iain wrote: post #45

The thing is, it's hard to feel bad for kiwifarms. They seem to be one of the worst sites there are. But freedom of speech/expression/opinions aren't about defending those who speech/expression/opinions you like but all of them. Personally, I think the site being shutdown is a good thing. But it's hard to look at the fact a few corporations can remove a website from the internet and think this is good for a free and…

I mean, what are your alternatives? Should the government legislate as to which clients companies should accept and which they shouldn’t? Even if the client is unprofitable?

Should the government itself offer these services?

Yes, the internet is very centralised these days. The question is what you would find acceptable to change it.

Re: Kiwi Farms is down across all domains as DDoS-Guard terminates service

#253

Post by kelnos »

raxxorraxor wrote: post #162
concordDance wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I treat these sites as cannaries. As long as they exist I can be confident that censorship isn't too bad, as they start to get shut down I start to worry. First the came for the X and I was not an X etc etc...

They also provide a good counter to propaganda. You don't have to believe you get Covid chipped or in evil lizard people to see serious and concerning displays of media propaganda. And yes, it is US corporations in cooperation with government far more than the Russians on the English speaking net. There is just as much propaganda in Russia in Russian of course. It is just the usual type of propaganda and works even m…

I think there are much better ways to counter propaganda than running a site that doxxes people you don't like and harasses them to the point they commit suicide. We should not enable folks like this.

If these are the only sorts of people who can counter propaganda, then perhaps we deserve the propaganda.

Re: Kiwi Farms is down across all domains as DDoS-Guard terminates service

#254

Post by Rebelgecko »

superb-owl wrote: post #222
that_guy_iain wrote: post #45

The thing is, it's hard to feel bad for kiwifarms. They seem to be one of the worst sites there are. But freedom of speech/expression/opinions aren't about defending those who speech/expression/opinions you like but all of them. Personally, I think the site being shutdown is a good thing. But it's hard to look at the fact a few corporations can remove a website from the internet and think this is good for a free and…

Freedom of speech, famously, doesn't give you the right to shout "fire" in a crowded movie theater [1]. It also doesn't give you the right to target, stalk, and harass people. The question to me isn't why did it take Cloudflare so long to make this decision. The question is why hadn't governments stepped in and _forced_ Cloudflare to take action, given the illegal activity taking place on the site. [1] https://en.wik…

Except you do have the right to shout "Fire" at a crowded theater, at least in the US. The original Supreme Court case (about criticism of the draft) was, IMO, a miscarriage of justice. Fortunately it was overturned a few decades later.

To stretch the metaphor (which was a throwaway comment in a brief, not a formal supreme court opinion about fire safety), you can shout "Fire!" in a crowded theater. What you can't do is lead a mob to a theater and tell them to set it on fire.

Re: Kiwi Farms is down across all domains as DDoS-Guard terminates service

#255

Post by TedDoesntTalk »

drexlspivey wrote: post #235
weare138 wrote: post #215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

3 people are dead because of that site. What they were doing was a crime. Criminal activity is not is not protected free speech. That's like arguing carding and SIM swapping sites are just expressing their right to free speech and should be protected.

What doesn’t make sense to me is why is Cloudflare harassed for providing an utility to some bad actors while other traditional providers aren’t? Is Comcast getting any flak for providing internet to the KKK offices? Or their water provider? Is Netflix getting any complains for providing entertainment to terrorists? Or vodafone for mobile connectivity? Why is it different for cloudflare?

The services you mention don’t provide a platform for their message, except maybe Comcast.

Re: Kiwi Farms is down across all domains as DDoS-Guard terminates service

#256

Post by moomin »

tsimionescu wrote: post #228
weare138 wrote: post #215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

3 people are dead because of that site. What they were doing was a crime. Criminal activity is not is not protected free speech. That's like arguing carding and SIM swapping sites are just expressing their right to free speech and should be protected.

So why are they not being prosecuted if it was a crime? DDoS is also a crime, and equates to mob justice at best in this case.

You seem to be under the impression most crimes are prosecuted. Very few are, because, amongst many other things, the police do not exist to protect citizens.

Re: Kiwi Farms is down across all domains as DDoS-Guard terminates service

#257

Post by jessaustin »

ok123456 wrote: post #170
8jy89hui wrote: post #153

https://blog.cloudflare.com/kiwifarms-blocked/ The cloudflare blog is a better resource on this topic.

Not really. Just allusions to bad things. The actual response from the site owner showed that it was likely an agent provocateur who used a dormant account, and then posted a screenshot to twitter. The post in question was deleted by staff within minutes.

If service providers wanted to take down e.g. HN, such a pretext would be easy enough to create. HN would never get to that point, however, since most posts here don't piss off "protected groups". From my brief perusal in the week that I've been aware of KF, nearly every thread was intended to piss off such a group. That's a widely appealing if thankless task, so alternatives will probably be created soon enough.

Re: Kiwi Farms is down across all domains as DDoS-Guard terminates service

#258

Post by boastful_inaba »

maccam912 wrote: post #22

Something I'm curious about in this whole thing: who is DDoSing kiwifarms? Most people find their content reprehensible but does that usually translate into people DDoSing something?

In previous years, the admin noticed a repeated monthly pattern of DDOS attacks, and believed that it was due to the cycle of people getting welfare/disability and spending as much as they could each month on rent-a-DDOS services.

Re: Kiwi Farms is down across all domains as DDoS-Guard terminates service

#260

Post by [deleted] »

that_guy_iain wrote: post #45

The thing is, it's hard to feel bad for kiwifarms. They seem to be one of the worst sites there are. But freedom of speech/expression/opinions aren't about defending those who speech/expression/opinions you like but all of them. Personally, I think the site being shutdown is a good thing. But it's hard to look at the fact a few corporations can remove a website from the internet and think this is good for a free and…

[deleted]
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