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Carlos Ghosn’s Brazen Escape from Japan

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Re: Carlos Ghosn’s Brazen Escape from Japan

#121

Post by fudgefactorfive »

SiempreViernes wrote: post #57
snovv_crash wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the argument here is that being in prison is a bad experience and wanting to escape is normal, natural human behaviour. As such, the onus is not on the prisoner to stay inside, but on the guards to keep them there. Escaping is, as such, not a crime in itself.

Evading a punishment is pretty universally seen as a crime, not sure why you'd think otherwise.

I can think of at least one nation that disagrees: Germany.

To quote Wikipedia "In some other places like Germany and a number of other countries, it is considered human nature to want to escape from a prison and it is considered as a violation of the right of freedom, so escape is not penalized in itself (in the absence of other factors such as threats of violence, actual violence, or property damage)."

[0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prison_escape

Re: Carlos Ghosn’s Brazen Escape from Japan

#122

Post by wpietri »

codedokode wrote: post #82
wpietri wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Financial crimes deserve a financial penalty. Nah. Financial crimes cause real harm. And financial penalties frequently aren't sufficient disincentive. Imagine that I have no assets but am a good talker. So I go out an launch an "investment fund" that is just a Ponzi scheme. Let's suppose I take in $50m, pocket $10m, and spend the rest on "investment returns" and appearing to run a real business. I live high on the…

> at which point many too-trusting people have lost their lifes' savings People should be a little smarter and not fall for Ponzi schemes. Furthermore, many people who invest in such schemes, understand how they work but hope to get profit before it collapses.

I don't think you understand how scams work. They're engineered so that somebody will fall for them. If we made everybody 10% smarter, scammers would just make their scams 10% cleverer.

I also think a linear "smartness" model misses it. Both intelligence and knowledge are multidimensional. Everybody has strengths and weaknesses, and well-run scams target particular weaknesses.

Re: Carlos Ghosn’s Brazen Escape from Japan

#123

Post by prvit »

SiempreViernes wrote: post #57
snovv_crash wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the argument here is that being in prison is a bad experience and wanting to escape is normal, natural human behaviour. As such, the onus is not on the prisoner to stay inside, but on the guards to keep them there. Escaping is, as such, not a crime in itself.

Evading a punishment is pretty universally seen as a crime, not sure why you'd think otherwise.

Not in most countries.

Re: Carlos Ghosn’s Brazen Escape from Japan

#124

Post by Cupertino95014 »

mikeyouse wrote: post #104
Cupertino95014 wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We were talking about marijuana prosecutions in the US vs. Russia. How is it "bad faith" to mention prosecutions in San Francisco?

When was the last prosecution in California? Are there any people in jail today for the crime? What was the average sentence of the 6 people per year who went to prison while Harris was DA? What crime were those people convicted of and what quantity of drugs did it involve? Do you think Chesa was inappropriately lenient in choosing not to prosecute crimes? The tack of your supposed argument let’s me know plenty enoug…

You ask five questions and then say you're not interested in continuing this conversation. And then you bring up Chesa, whom no one's mentioned at all. Cute.

Re: Carlos Ghosn’s Brazen Escape from Japan

#125

Post by mpalmer »

codedokode wrote: post #80
justapassenger wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Financial crimes deserve a financial penalty. Financial crimes, aka crimes rich people commit, to be richer, deserve much more harsh treatment that we give them today. You can go to jail for years for shoplifting (aka crimes poor people commit) few thousand dollars worth of goods. People should be much more often sentenced to go to jail for life for committing millions of dollars worth of financial crimes.

Financial crimes are not violent and therefore should be punished lightly.

If you're a rational criminal, you might think along these lines:

* I am considering committing a crime that is worth X to me.

* The price (punishment) for this crime is Y.

* I only have to pay the price if I'm caught and convicted, both of which have some probability between 0 and 1.

So the effective price for committing this crime is Y multiplied by the probability I'm caught and convicted.

If

    X > P(caught) * P(convicted) * Y
Then I should commit the crime. Otherwise, it's not worth it.

For financial crimes, it's safe to say that P(caught) and P(convicted) get lower and lower the richer and more powerful you become. You have access to the best accountants and attorneys, making certain financial crime reliably profitable and increasingly attractive.

Therefore it stands to reason that while there is a line past which a punishment becomes excessive, an effective punishment must lead would-be criminals to decide that the risk is not worth it. Until this is the case, we have to either increase P(caught & convicted), or else increase Y; we can't do neither.

Probably increasing both is best; an increase in fines (Y) could fund the increased enforcement (P) necessary. Good luck passing those laws, though.

Re: Carlos Ghosn’s Brazen Escape from Japan

#126

Post by josefx »

prvit wrote: post #111
josefx wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So the people stuck sorting out his mess, having to spend weeks in office going through the paperwork generated by one shell company after the other, should also file charges against him for aggravated assault?

People get paid for that, it’s a job.

So it is okay when we exchange captivity for money? So if we converted the money he stole into an hourly rate we could stick him into prison until the sun burns out and call it a job?

Re: Carlos Ghosn’s Brazen Escape from Japan

#127

Post by kubatyszko »

wfleming wrote: post #81
themitigating wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"He had essentially zero chance of being acquitted" - So if I commit a crime it's morally acceptable to flee justice if the probability or evidence exceeds a certain threshold? In other words, the more proof there is that I committed a crime gives me more justification to avoid punishment? "He was the victim of Nissan executives who didn't like having a gaijin be their boss:" Prove it. "If you disagree with that, sup…

> He had essentially zero chance of being acquitted I think GP was referring to the fact that Japan has an over 99% conviction rate. Even if we presume that Japan has unusually high quality prosecutors and judges, that rate is so high that I think it’s reasonable to presume a fair number of innocent people are getting convicted (which happens lots of places, of course, but Japan’s conviction rate is still unusual).

The 99% rate is NOT because the system (prosecutors, judges) is "good", the rate is so high because system is structured to bully anyone arrested to admit to the crimes. You're basically coerced into confession, whether or not you did it.

Re: Carlos Ghosn’s Brazen Escape from Japan

#128

Post by iforgotpassword »

throwoutway wrote: post #95
iforgotpassword wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because it's a natural instinct to seek freedom. It's in human nature. Like, expecting a prisoner to keep sitting in their cell when suddenly all doors spring open is ridiculous.

Sure it’s a natural instinct, but society as a whole views it as ethically, morally, and legally “wrong”. We don’t allow individual’s selfish motives to rule society in other areas. Either way, the person I was responding to did not say it was a natural desire, they only said it was “not wrong”.

I guess there are different levels on which you can look at this. If a rapist escapes from prison I certainly don't celebrate that. I want him to get captured again as quickly as possible. But I do not think it should add anything to his sentence, at least not for the attempt itself. If he hurt anyone, broke/stole something on his way out that's a different issue.

Re: Carlos Ghosn’s Brazen Escape from Japan

#129

Post by telchior »

vorpalhex wrote: post #96
wpietri wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Financial crimes deserve a financial penalty. Nah. Financial crimes cause real harm. And financial penalties frequently aren't sufficient disincentive. Imagine that I have no assets but am a good talker. So I go out an launch an "investment fund" that is just a Ponzi scheme. Let's suppose I take in $50m, pocket $10m, and spend the rest on "investment returns" and appearing to run a real business. I live high on the…

Being raped, assaulted or having a family member murdered is worse than losing money. Money can be repaid. You can't be unraped.

Are those the only crimes that involve jail time you can think of?

We spent half a century sending people to jail for years or decades for possessing a bit of marijuana. You can be sent to jail for non-payment of speeding fines, or fishing at the wrong time of year. Or peacefully protesting government policies.

Re: Carlos Ghosn’s Brazen Escape from Japan

#130

Post by Hydraulix989 »

mpalmer wrote: post #125
codedokode wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Financial crimes are not violent and therefore should be punished lightly.

If you're a rational criminal, you might think along these lines: * I am considering committing a crime that is worth X to me. * The price (punishment) for this crime is Y. * I only have to pay the price if I'm caught and convicted, both of which have some probability between 0 and 1. So the effective price for committing this crime is Y multiplied by the probability I'm caught and convicted. If X > P(caught) * P(con…

the second term is more clearly written as: P(convicted|caught)
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