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Carlos Ghosn’s Brazen Escape from Japan

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Re: Carlos Ghosn’s Brazen Escape from Japan

#81

Post by wfleming »

themitigating wrote: post #65
Cupertino95014 wrote: post #30

Since: 1) He had essentially zero chance of being acquitted, and 2) He was the victim of Nissan executives who didn't like having a gaijin be their boss: In his shoes, I would feel morally justified in escaping. Financial crimes deserve a financial penalty. If you disagree with that, suppose Britney Griner somehow escaped from Russian "justice"? How would you feel then? Edit. Everyone talking about hypothetical burgl…

"He had essentially zero chance of being acquitted" - So if I commit a crime it's morally acceptable to flee justice if the probability or evidence exceeds a certain threshold? In other words, the more proof there is that I committed a crime gives me more justification to avoid punishment? "He was the victim of Nissan executives who didn't like having a gaijin be their boss:" Prove it. "If you disagree with that, sup…

> He had essentially zero chance of being acquitted

I think GP was referring to the fact that Japan has an over 99% conviction rate.

Even if we presume that Japan has unusually high quality prosecutors and judges, that rate is so high that I think it’s reasonable to presume a fair number of innocent people are getting convicted (which happens lots of places, of course, but Japan’s conviction rate is still unusual).

Re: Carlos Ghosn’s Brazen Escape from Japan

#82

Post by codedokode »

wpietri wrote: post #52
Cupertino95014 wrote: post #30

Since: 1) He had essentially zero chance of being acquitted, and 2) He was the victim of Nissan executives who didn't like having a gaijin be their boss: In his shoes, I would feel morally justified in escaping. Financial crimes deserve a financial penalty. If you disagree with that, suppose Britney Griner somehow escaped from Russian "justice"? How would you feel then? Edit. Everyone talking about hypothetical burgl…

> Financial crimes deserve a financial penalty. Nah. Financial crimes cause real harm. And financial penalties frequently aren't sufficient disincentive. Imagine that I have no assets but am a good talker. So I go out an launch an "investment fund" that is just a Ponzi scheme. Let's suppose I take in $50m, pocket $10m, and spend the rest on "investment returns" and appearing to run a real business. I live high on the…

> at which point many too-trusting people have lost their lifes' savings

People should be a little smarter and not fall for Ponzi schemes. Furthermore, many people who invest in such schemes, understand how they work but hope to get profit before it collapses.

Re: Carlos Ghosn’s Brazen Escape from Japan

#83

Post by trhway »

CamperBob2 wrote: post #18

Wow, not hard to see how the next 9/11 will happen. The staff at the charter jet terminal were almost criminally clueless. "So, how exactly does the security work around here, anyway? Is this huge crate going to be X-rayed? Because it needs to not be X-rayed. Also, here's a $10,000 tip, just to make sure you, um, don't remember us."

Laws, including custom checks, passport checks, etc. are for regular people. There was even a recent program on NPR how different is the life of super-wealthy.

And while super-wealthy is a totally different game, even upper middle class money already distort the reality in a much more comfortable way. I'm watching a case in Santa Clara of an NVIDIA director, a Russian immigrant, who 2 years ago being drunk and speeding on I-80 hit several cars and killed a woman (all that "allegedly" as the moron does evidently have money for lawyers). It happened about the same time as a famous actor in Russia driving drunk killed a man in an accident, and that sparked my curiosity to compare how the cases would go. The Russian actor, a relatively decent human being, chose a path of a regular person and instead of applying all his star power/etc. he is already almost 2 years into his 7 years prison term. The NVIDIA director on the other hand totally lawyered up, and there have since then been uncountable motions/hearings/etc. with no sign of progress. My guess is that he will have that charade going for a long as possible - given the money he makes, the lawyers is just a minor cost of doing business for him - and if/when things start to come to an outcome he doesn't like, he would just leave the country, doesn't even need a box like Ghosn, and go back to Russia or anywhere else where no extradition treaties with US (his bail is just $275K, pretty laughable given the NVIDIA director comp).

Re: Carlos Ghosn’s Brazen Escape from Japan

#84

Post by mbreese »

codedokode wrote: post #82
wpietri wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Financial crimes deserve a financial penalty. Nah. Financial crimes cause real harm. And financial penalties frequently aren't sufficient disincentive. Imagine that I have no assets but am a good talker. So I go out an launch an "investment fund" that is just a Ponzi scheme. Let's suppose I take in $50m, pocket $10m, and spend the rest on "investment returns" and appearing to run a real business. I live high on the…

> at which point many too-trusting people have lost their lifes' savings People should be a little smarter and not fall for Ponzi schemes. Furthermore, many people who invest in such schemes, understand how they work but hope to get profit before it collapses.

So you’re going with victim blaming as your defense here?

Re: Carlos Ghosn’s Brazen Escape from Japan

#86

Post by mpalmer »

codedokode wrote: post #80
justapassenger wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Financial crimes deserve a financial penalty. Financial crimes, aka crimes rich people commit, to be richer, deserve much more harsh treatment that we give them today. You can go to jail for years for shoplifting (aka crimes poor people commit) few thousand dollars worth of goods. People should be much more often sentenced to go to jail for life for committing millions of dollars worth of financial crimes.

Financial crimes are not violent and therefore should be punished lightly.

How light can a punishment be before it's no longer discouraging the crime?

Re: Carlos Ghosn’s Brazen Escape from Japan

#87

Post by ahtihn »

codedokode wrote: post #80
justapassenger wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Financial crimes deserve a financial penalty. Financial crimes, aka crimes rich people commit, to be richer, deserve much more harsh treatment that we give them today. You can go to jail for years for shoplifting (aka crimes poor people commit) few thousand dollars worth of goods. People should be much more often sentenced to go to jail for life for committing millions of dollars worth of financial crimes.

Financial crimes are not violent and therefore should be punished lightly.

That makes no sense.

A home burglary where no one's present is non violent. Do you think that should be punished lightly? It causes orders of magnitude less damage than a lot of financial crime.

Re: Carlos Ghosn’s Brazen Escape from Japan

#88

Post by kergonath »

codedokode wrote: post #82
wpietri wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Financial crimes deserve a financial penalty. Nah. Financial crimes cause real harm. And financial penalties frequently aren't sufficient disincentive. Imagine that I have no assets but am a good talker. So I go out an launch an "investment fund" that is just a Ponzi scheme. Let's suppose I take in $50m, pocket $10m, and spend the rest on "investment returns" and appearing to run a real business. I live high on the…

> at which point many too-trusting people have lost their lifes' savings People should be a little smarter and not fall for Ponzi schemes. Furthermore, many people who invest in such schemes, understand how they work but hope to get profit before it collapses.

> People should be a little smarter and not fall for Ponzi schemes

Blaming the victims is not a solution.

This logic can be applied to justify stopping punishing any crime (“well, they should have stayed at home if they did not want to get mugged”, “they should know better than leave their house for the week if they did not want to get burglarised”, etc).

Re: Carlos Ghosn’s Brazen Escape from Japan

#89

Post by chrischen »

yomkippur wrote: post #68
KerrAvon wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

it’s really not that clear cut, though

he is also wanted in France for similar embezzlement, I don't understand why so many expats and people who never been in Japan are suddenly defending a grifter.

Not convicted yet, and apparently he does want to be tried just in France and not in Japan.

A lot of the accusations are for standard rich people crimes which is some amount of tax avoidance. You can basically pick and choose who you want to target because as panama papers shows pretty much all rich people are dodging taxes to some degree.

Re: Carlos Ghosn’s Brazen Escape from Japan

#90

Post by PedroBatista »

Cupertino95014 wrote: post #30

Since: 1) He had essentially zero chance of being acquitted, and 2) He was the victim of Nissan executives who didn't like having a gaijin be their boss: In his shoes, I would feel morally justified in escaping. Financial crimes deserve a financial penalty. If you disagree with that, suppose Britney Griner somehow escaped from Russian "justice"? How would you feel then? Edit. Everyone talking about hypothetical burgl…

> He was the victim of Nissan executives who didn't like having a gaijin be their boss:

Largely agree.

> Financial crimes deserve a financial penalty.

That's a very old aristocratic view of financial "wrong-doing", still persists somewhat these days because the idea that for "people with money" with a good reputation, being condemned in public and losing their good name is already a penalty big enough.

That's... let's just say this line of thinking should stay in the past.

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