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Carlos Ghosn’s Brazen Escape from Japan

wsj.com

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Re: Carlos Ghosn’s Brazen Escape from Japan

#51

Post by [deleted] »

MerelyMortal wrote: post #38
Cupertino95014 wrote: post #30

Since: 1) He had essentially zero chance of being acquitted, and 2) He was the victim of Nissan executives who didn't like having a gaijin be their boss: In his shoes, I would feel morally justified in escaping. Financial crimes deserve a financial penalty. If you disagree with that, suppose Britney Griner somehow escaped from Russian "justice"? How would you feel then? Edit. Everyone talking about hypothetical burgl…

> Financial crimes deserve a financial penalty. I'm not sure what you mean by it, can you please give an example? For most people, money represents the time out of their lives it took to earn it. If you steal $10 from someone, and they earned it from a job that pays $10/hour - you didn't steal $10, you stole an hour of their life.

[deleted]

Re: Carlos Ghosn’s Brazen Escape from Japan

#52

Post by wpietri »

Cupertino95014 wrote: post #30

Since: 1) He had essentially zero chance of being acquitted, and 2) He was the victim of Nissan executives who didn't like having a gaijin be their boss: In his shoes, I would feel morally justified in escaping. Financial crimes deserve a financial penalty. If you disagree with that, suppose Britney Griner somehow escaped from Russian "justice"? How would you feel then? Edit. Everyone talking about hypothetical burgl…

> Financial crimes deserve a financial penalty.

Nah. Financial crimes cause real harm. And financial penalties frequently aren't sufficient disincentive.

Imagine that I have no assets but am a good talker. So I go out an launch an "investment fund" that is just a Ponzi scheme. Let's suppose I take in $50m, pocket $10m, and spend the rest on "investment returns" and appearing to run a real business. I live high on the hog for 5 years before it all falls apart, at which point many too-trusting people have lost their lifes' savings. What is the correct penalty?

There's no way a financial penalty can be correct here because all of my money was stolen. If the government just sets me back the zero I started at, what punishment is that? Where's my disincentive to do it all again?

If anything, I'd argue financial crimes are more likely to deserve jail time. People who steal food may be doing it out of necessity. But nobody stealing millions through financial crimes can claim desperation. I don't think people who use suits to rob instead of ski masks are any less thieves.

Re: Carlos Ghosn’s Brazen Escape from Japan

#53

Post by wpietri »

TedShiller wrote: post #50
someperson wrote: post #11

The article ends with Ghosn entering the box. > This article is adapted from “Boundless: The Rise, Fall, and Escape of Carlos Ghosn” by Wall Street Journal reporters Nick Kostov and Sean McLain, to be published on Aug. 9, 2022

They left out the interesting part

Not a coincidence! The marketing purpose of publishing a book excerpt is so the book's audience can better see why it's worth buying the book.

Re: Carlos Ghosn’s Brazen Escape from Japan

#54

Post by justapassenger »

Cupertino95014 wrote: post #30

Since: 1) He had essentially zero chance of being acquitted, and 2) He was the victim of Nissan executives who didn't like having a gaijin be their boss: In his shoes, I would feel morally justified in escaping. Financial crimes deserve a financial penalty. If you disagree with that, suppose Britney Griner somehow escaped from Russian "justice"? How would you feel then? Edit. Everyone talking about hypothetical burgl…

> Financial crimes deserve a financial penalty.

Financial crimes, aka crimes rich people commit, to be richer, deserve much more harsh treatment that we give them today. You can go to jail for years for shoplifting (aka crimes poor people commit) few thousand dollars worth of goods. People should be much more often sentenced to go to jail for life for committing millions of dollars worth of financial crimes.

Re: Carlos Ghosn’s Brazen Escape from Japan

#55

Post by alexseman »

Teever wrote: post #32
Cupertino95014 wrote: post #30

Since: 1) He had essentially zero chance of being acquitted, and 2) He was the victim of Nissan executives who didn't like having a gaijin be their boss: In his shoes, I would feel morally justified in escaping. Financial crimes deserve a financial penalty. If you disagree with that, suppose Britney Griner somehow escaped from Russian "justice"? How would you feel then? Edit. Everyone talking about hypothetical burgl…

> Financial crimes deserve a financial penalty. Can you explain this one? Do you believe violent crimes require a violent penalty?

No post body was provided.

Re: Carlos Ghosn’s Brazen Escape from Japan

#56

Post by UIUC_06 »

CamperBob2 wrote: post #22
mrtksn wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He is rich and able, I would have done the same if I was in his shoes so I don't judge him from moral perspective. I'm on the same page with the Germans on this one, i.e. it shouldn't be a crime and it's not wrong to escape from prison. That said, not being him, I really don't like the narrative built around how Japanese prisons are horrible and it's justified to not serve for crimes in Japan. I also wonder if the "J…

I've read that Japanese prosecutors win something like 98% of the cases they bring. If true, it suggests that either they let a lot of crimes go unprosecuted in Japan, which doesn't ring true, or that their police have godlike powers of investigation and discernment (ditto), or that the adversarial court system really is a bit too adversarial from the defendant's point of view. So I can't say I wouldn't have done the…

There is an unfortunate effect that that kind of success record produces:

The judge figures that you must be guilty, or they wouldn't be charging you.

There's an old baseball story, where Rogers Hornsby (one of the greatest hitters of all time) is up, a pitch comes in, and the ump calls it a ball. The catcher turns around to complain.

The ump says "Young man, if that was a strike, Mr. Hornsby would have swung at it."

Re: Carlos Ghosn’s Brazen Escape from Japan

#57

Post by SiempreViernes »

snovv_crash wrote: post #29
throwoutway wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> it's not wrong to escape from prison. Uh, yes it is. Maybe if you’re imprisoned illegally (kidnapping or by kangaroo court) but in the general case—in a democracy with actual courts, it’s wrong. You think the cartel bosses that escaped from Mexico’s prisons were not morally and ethically wrong on multiple levels? Just because there’s also some corruption in the gov? Or because the prisons aren’t great. That’s unrea…

I think the argument here is that being in prison is a bad experience and wanting to escape is normal, natural human behaviour. As such, the onus is not on the prisoner to stay inside, but on the guards to keep them there. Escaping is, as such, not a crime in itself.

Evading a punishment is pretty universally seen as a crime, not sure why you'd think otherwise.

Re: Carlos Ghosn’s Brazen Escape from Japan

#58

Post by iforgotpassword »

rado wrote: post #46

It's good that this case pulled the lid off (sorry) Japan's questionable justice system. See also: child abduction in mixed marriages https://www.smh.com.au/world/asia/their-children-were-taken-...

Doesn't the lid get pulled off every couple years and then nothing? I feel I read about a few cases over the decades. Somehow Nintendo and Anime seem to overpower that quite well. ;-)

Re: Carlos Ghosn’s Brazen Escape from Japan

#59

Post by josefx »

prvit wrote: post #41
Teever wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Financial crimes deserve a financial penalty. Can you explain this one? Do you believe violent crimes require a violent penalty?

> Do you believe violent crimes require a violent penalty? It’s certainly a common belief, imprisoning someone is inherently a violent penalty.

So the people stuck sorting out his mess, having to spend weeks in office going through the paperwork generated by one shell company after the other, should also file charges against him for aggravated assault?
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