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Carlos Ghosn’s Brazen Escape from Japan

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Re: Carlos Ghosn’s Brazen Escape from Japan

#21

Post by collegeburner »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #7
collegeburner wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

imo his concerns about the japanese justice system arent all wrong. so not that simple. if i was in his position i'd probably do the same.

> his concerns about the japanese justice system arent all wrong. so not that simple Conveniently, he cannot stand trial in France, which has also called for his arrest based on their own investigations, because he chose to become an international fugitive in Lebanon [1]. That said, I believe there has been prosecutorial interest around Anthony Ghosn--Carlos's son living in, to my last recollection, California--due t…

ofc he can't stand trial in france bc they will extradite him to japan instead. he got the assange problem.

Re: Carlos Ghosn’s Brazen Escape from Japan

#22

Post by CamperBob2 »

mrtksn wrote: post #13
yomkippur wrote: post #4

Quoted post unavailable.

He is rich and able, I would have done the same if I was in his shoes so I don't judge him from moral perspective. I'm on the same page with the Germans on this one, i.e. it shouldn't be a crime and it's not wrong to escape from prison. That said, not being him, I really don't like the narrative built around how Japanese prisons are horrible and it's justified to not serve for crimes in Japan. I also wonder if the "J…

I've read that Japanese prosecutors win something like 98% of the cases they bring. If true, it suggests that either they let a lot of crimes go unprosecuted in Japan, which doesn't ring true, or that their police have godlike powers of investigation and discernment (ditto), or that the adversarial court system really is a bit too adversarial from the defendant's point of view.

So I can't say I wouldn't have done the same as Ghosn, given the necessary resources. Right or wrong wouldn't be a consideration, as long as I could rationalize an assumption of bad faith on the courts' part.

Edit: I guess it could also suggest that the police in Japan are hopeless fuckups who only manage to catch the most flagrantly-incompetent criminals. That doesn't sound any more realistic than the other possibilities IMO.

Re: Carlos Ghosn’s Brazen Escape from Japan

#23

Post by mrtksn »

throwoutway wrote: post #19
mrtksn wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He is rich and able, I would have done the same if I was in his shoes so I don't judge him from moral perspective. I'm on the same page with the Germans on this one, i.e. it shouldn't be a crime and it's not wrong to escape from prison. That said, not being him, I really don't like the narrative built around how Japanese prisons are horrible and it's justified to not serve for crimes in Japan. I also wonder if the "J…

> it's not wrong to escape from prison. Uh, yes it is. Maybe if you’re imprisoned illegally (kidnapping or by kangaroo court) but in the general case—in a democracy with actual courts, it’s wrong. You think the cartel bosses that escaped from Mexico’s prisons were not morally and ethically wrong on multiple levels? Just because there’s also some corruption in the gov? Or because the prisons aren’t great. That’s unrea…

I think the burden for imprisonment and compelling people to stay in prison is on the punishers.

That should not be confused with the crimes being wrong, I'm talking about ones desire not to be imprisoned being a natural desire and acting on it not being wrong by itself.

Re: Carlos Ghosn’s Brazen Escape from Japan

#24

Post by Nextgrid »

CamperBob2 wrote: post #18

Wow, not hard to see how the next 9/11 will happen. The staff at the charter jet terminal were almost criminally clueless. "So, how exactly does the security work around here, anyway? Is this huge crate going to be X-rayed? Because it needs to not be X-rayed. Also, here's a $10,000 tip, just to make sure you, um, don't remember us."

I'm not sure how much this is a 9/11 risk?

As far as I know the protection against "taking a jet and crashing it into a building" is a squadron of fighter jets that are quickly dispatched to (if necessary) shoot down any plane on a risky path. That's exactly what happened when some mentally unstable airport employee "stole" a plane and committed suicide by crashing it into the water after a few stunts.

The other risk would be to take passengers hostage, but in case of a chartered plane I think it's fair game to let the customer themselves decide on the level of security they need - presumably they aren't harboring any terrorists/hijackers, and I would think hijacking a private corporate flight is really low on terrorist groups' bucket lists in terms of the expected "payoff".

Re: Carlos Ghosn’s Brazen Escape from Japan

#25

Post by jokowueu »

throwoutway wrote: post #19
mrtksn wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He is rich and able, I would have done the same if I was in his shoes so I don't judge him from moral perspective. I'm on the same page with the Germans on this one, i.e. it shouldn't be a crime and it's not wrong to escape from prison. That said, not being him, I really don't like the narrative built around how Japanese prisons are horrible and it's justified to not serve for crimes in Japan. I also wonder if the "J…

> it's not wrong to escape from prison. Uh, yes it is. Maybe if you’re imprisoned illegally (kidnapping or by kangaroo court) but in the general case—in a democracy with actual courts, it’s wrong. You think the cartel bosses that escaped from Mexico’s prisons were not morally and ethically wrong on multiple levels? Just because there’s also some corruption in the gov? Or because the prisons aren’t great. That’s unrea…

There are major issues with Japan's justice system though . I mean just reading the link on this thread made me sad

Michael Taylor. Mr. Taylor pleaded guilty to aiding Mr. Ghosn’s escape and started a two-year sentence at Tokyo’s Fuchu Prison in the summer of 2021; he spends much of his day in solitary confinement.

Re: Carlos Ghosn’s Brazen Escape from Japan

#26

Post by CamperBob2 »

Nextgrid wrote: post #24
CamperBob2 wrote: post #18

Wow, not hard to see how the next 9/11 will happen. The staff at the charter jet terminal were almost criminally clueless. "So, how exactly does the security work around here, anyway? Is this huge crate going to be X-rayed? Because it needs to not be X-rayed. Also, here's a $10,000 tip, just to make sure you, um, don't remember us."

I'm not sure how much this is a 9/11 risk? As far as I know the protection against "taking a jet and crashing it into a building" is a squadron of fighter jets that are quickly dispatched to (if necessary) shoot down any plane on a risky path. That's exactly what happened when some mentally unstable airport employee "stole" a plane and committed suicide by crashing it into the water after a few stunts. The other risk…

You're not wrong, but still, the events recounted in this article provide a near-perfect template for some really horrific shenanigans.

Re: Carlos Ghosn’s Brazen Escape from Japan

#28

Post by maybelsyrup »

theflyingelvis wrote: post #15

Props to Ghosn. Stuck it to the man.

Ghosn IS "the man". People who stick it to the man don't have access to Green Berets and private jets and multiple citizenships.

This story can be understood as bickering between two factions or groups of "the man": on the one side the Japanese legal system, hardly a champion of the underdog; and on the other, one of the world's richest and most powerful people, the sort of person who does not (cannot) arrive at his station in life without being a special type of ruthless sociopath, whether they're guilty of literal crimes or not along the way.

So like it's a highly entertaining cage match, but rooting for one or the other if you're not also part of the ownership class is kinda a coin toss.

Re: Carlos Ghosn’s Brazen Escape from Japan

#29

Post by snovv_crash »

throwoutway wrote: post #19
mrtksn wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He is rich and able, I would have done the same if I was in his shoes so I don't judge him from moral perspective. I'm on the same page with the Germans on this one, i.e. it shouldn't be a crime and it's not wrong to escape from prison. That said, not being him, I really don't like the narrative built around how Japanese prisons are horrible and it's justified to not serve for crimes in Japan. I also wonder if the "J…

> it's not wrong to escape from prison. Uh, yes it is. Maybe if you’re imprisoned illegally (kidnapping or by kangaroo court) but in the general case—in a democracy with actual courts, it’s wrong. You think the cartel bosses that escaped from Mexico’s prisons were not morally and ethically wrong on multiple levels? Just because there’s also some corruption in the gov? Or because the prisons aren’t great. That’s unrea…

I think the argument here is that being in prison is a bad experience and wanting to escape is normal, natural human behaviour. As such, the onus is not on the prisoner to stay inside, but on the guards to keep them there. Escaping is, as such, not a crime in itself.

Re: Carlos Ghosn’s Brazen Escape from Japan

#30

Post by Cupertino95014 »

Since:

1) He had essentially zero chance of being acquitted, and

2) He was the victim of Nissan executives who didn't like having a gaijin be their boss:

In his shoes, I would feel morally justified in escaping. Financial crimes deserve a financial penalty.

If you disagree with that, suppose Britney Griner somehow escaped from Russian "justice"? How would you feel then?

Edit. Everyone talking about hypothetical burglaries and $10 thefts from poor people: please explain what, exactly, Ghosn was accused of stealing, and from whom?

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