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Amazon workers on Staten Island vote to unionize

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Re: Amazon workers on Staten Island vote to unionize

#601

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It has been my experience that most folks commenting on this matter on HN have no clue whatsoever what they are talking about. None. They comment based on pure ideology or, possibly worse, a delusion driven into their heads by our lovely universities. Those of us, like you, who actually have or had skin in the game --real experience actually trying to make real things in the context of the real world-- know better. W…

It’s genuinely terrifying. There seems to be no recognition that you cannot have labor unions and environmental protections with out tariffs to even the playing field with less scrupulous countries. We are rapidly approaching a time where only the military industrial complex retains any manufacturing expertise.

I have designed and manufactured systems for aerospace applications. I spent months dealing with ITAR issues due to the reality that you simply cannot build almost anything out of US/European components. The metal and a few high-tech items, mostly in the materials domain. Almost everything else is not made in the US or Europe.

I thought that people were going to wake up to some of these realities when they finally saw reality in the form of not even being able to manufacture face masks in the US. We don't make the cloth and other materials, we don't even make the machines you need to manufacture them.

This and related realities should have been covered in great detail by our media. For people outside of manufacturing this was news. Most people go through life having no understanding whatsoever of how and where the stuff they use every day comes from, how it's made, etc.

The pandemic should have shocked everyone into pushing for massive changes that would, over time, increase self reliance. Yet, none of that happened. It was starting to, at the highest levels, but then political forces changed and now we are more concerned about giving people free money than actually securing their futures and that of the next generation. Brilliant.

Re: Amazon workers on Staten Island vote to unionize

#602
post #526
post #455

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Pay and Benefits are one thing. Working conditions are another. You can pay me 15 an hour (Only $30K a year) but if I have to pee in a bottle or don't have enough schedule consistency to see my kids it's not worth it. Amazon may pay well for now, but let's be honest, Amazon is a monopolistic project. What happens when there's less competition than there is right now? Do you think wages stay where they're at without s…

> Democratically run unions give employees real negotiating power over what it means to go to work day to day. I've been part of a few and this has never been the case in my experience.

I’ve been sound a few and have seen the same. The wannabe politicians and “negotiators” that are attracted to these union roles are the bullies or powerbrokers from middle school who tend to love the power that comes from those roles. They’re also actively motivated to be at odds with the employer which tends to make them part of the problem not the solution.

I genuinely see this as bad for online retail.

Re: Amazon workers on Staten Island vote to unionize

#603

I really don’t understand this push tbh. Amazon is already the industry leader in pay and benefits for these roles. Why was this needed? In 2022, the only time I tend to see a union do anything, it’s to disrupt and create mob like holds on things (shipping, trucking etc). There seems to be waaay more corruption in anything union related than without. Can someone seriously explain why this is needed or a good thing? W…

This effort started over unsafe COVID working conditions. Not dying at work seems like a win. 15$/hr ~ 30k$/year - That doesn't sound like a lot to be honest.

Not a lot sure. But WAY above minimum wage in many many states.

These aren’t highly skilled jobs. They come with healthcare and leave benefits. That’s game changing. Yet people seem enraged… I just don’t get it.

Re: Amazon workers on Staten Island vote to unionize

#604
post #484

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I've been a conservative since I had a minimum wage job, for one reason: I want the government out of my life as much as possible. I firmly believe nobody will care about my family as much as I do and I don't want the government's golden handcuffs. Leave me alone, let me work, and I'll happily live with whatever happens. I think this is the fundamental disconnect in left-right (economic) politics. The left, as I see…

>The left, as I see it, wants some guarantee of a good outcome. The right wants liberty, recognizing that comes with risk. I think it's more that the left believes government has a responsibility to guarantee equality of opportunity, not equality of outcome in what is assumed to be a fundamentally inequitable system. The big philosophical difference to me is in what each side believes the proper role of government sh…

> The big philosophical difference to me is in what each side believes the proper role of government should be.

I think you're close here, but I don't think that's the root of it. That difference in position is important, but it comes from even deeper philosophical differences. I think this boils down to the argument over positive vs negative rights (freedom to vs freedom from).

A worldview built on negative rights has to have a much smaller legitimate role for the government than one built on positive rights. In the former, the government can never make anything better, only potentially rectifying wrongs (usually via punishing the offender). Within that framework, the goal of the government becomes to rectify the worst of the wrongs while disturbing things as little as possible. A worldview built on positive rights inherently leaves a bigger space for the government to behave legitimately, because this worldview sees the government as having a role in making things better.

Of course, there are very few people who adhere 100% to either of these, so reality is a bit more complicated.

Re: Amazon workers on Staten Island vote to unionize

#605
post #581

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No, he was ridiculed for [loving] the dumb vote, because he said so . https://youtu.be/Vpdt7omPoa0

Well that was amazingly dishonest of you. He said he loves the “poorly educated”, he never said “dumb”, you did , which I think says more about you than Trump.

That's incredibly dishonest of you.

You introduced "dumb" as a euphemism for poorly educated. You did that in this discussion. The poster than quotes directly Trump saying he loves the poorly educated, and then you presumably feign being upset at the use of the word "dumb" that you introduced.

That speaks volumes about you.

Re: Amazon workers on Staten Island vote to unionize

#606
post #581

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well that was amazingly dishonest of you. He said he loves the “poorly educated”, he never said “dumb”, you did , which I think says more about you than Trump.

That's incredibly dishonest of you. You introduced "dumb" as a euphemism for poorly educated. You did that in this discussion. The poster than quotes directly Trump saying he loves the poorly educated, and then you presumably feign being upset at the use of the word "dumb" that you introduced. That speaks volumes about you.

I didn't introduce "dumb". That's why I put in quotes, I was quoting what others had said.

And regardless, clearly Bilal_io was accusing Trump of something negative or why else share that clip? He literally sad "Trump was ridiculed" and shared that clip. So he agrees Trump was ridiculed for loving the "uneducated vote", which was entirely my point.

You either missed that or are intentionally trying to gaslight me.

Re: Amazon workers on Staten Island vote to unionize

#607
post #606

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's incredibly dishonest of you. You introduced "dumb" as a euphemism for poorly educated. You did that in this discussion. The poster than quotes directly Trump saying he loves the poorly educated, and then you presumably feign being upset at the use of the word "dumb" that you introduced. That speaks volumes about you.

I didn't introduce "dumb". That's why I put in quotes, I was quoting what others had said. And regardless, clearly Bilal_io was accusing Trump of something negative or why else share that clip? He literally sad "Trump was ridiculed" and shared that clip. So he agrees Trump was ridiculed for loving the "uneducated vote", which was entirely my point. You either missed that or are intentionally trying to gaslight me.

> I was quoting what others had said.

Then please share the quote from a legit source (and not joe schmo on the internet).

And again, it's not clear if you know what you wrote. Bila_io didn't accuse Trump of something negative. You again said:

> Trump won a big swath of non-college graduates (presumably blue collar workers) he was ridiculed for having the “dumb” vote.

You specifically introduced Trump being ridiculed. Do you again not see that you introduced this concept to the discussion and yet are accusing the other person of doing it? You both wrote "dumb" and the concept of "ridicule" and are assigning responsibility to both of those to the person who responded to you. You introduced both of those in the context of Trump.

Re: Amazon workers on Staten Island vote to unionize

#608

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You cannot have optional and union in the same sentence, that defeats the purpose of a union. What you are saying is I want the union to do all the work without me being hands on on its function. Unions are useless if the workers just sit idle and wait for the representatives to do all the work. Participation of all workers is what make a union powerful.

I don't see how the union was doing any worthwhile work for me back when I was making minimum wage at a grocery store. All I saw was that they wanted to skim hundreds of dollars off my meager paychecks every year.

You didn't understand what the benefits of collective action against a hostile employer are. That's the fault of the union for failing to explain what they do for members (unions are about much more than just wages). That doesn't mean there's no benefit though.

Re: Amazon workers on Staten Island vote to unionize

#609

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except it's accurate. Most conservatives are fair-weather individualists who only care about "liberty" in loose terms as long as the liberty that they believe is being affected is their own. We had to drag conservatives kicking and screaming over the past 30 years to allow gays to have the right to marry and openly serve in the military, just like we had to drag them kicking and screaming 60 years ago to allow minori…

Reread my post, I I thought I was clear emphasizing that they didn't want imposition on themselves. Nobody does

You cannot divorce their record on the rights of others with their claims of being for liberty, thus the GP's post was not uncharitable at all.

Re: Amazon workers on Staten Island vote to unionize

#610
post #606

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I didn't introduce "dumb". That's why I put in quotes, I was quoting what others had said. And regardless, clearly Bilal_io was accusing Trump of something negative or why else share that clip? He literally sad "Trump was ridiculed" and shared that clip. So he agrees Trump was ridiculed for loving the "uneducated vote", which was entirely my point. You either missed that or are intentionally trying to gaslight me.

> I was quoting what others had said. Then please share the quote from a legit source (and not joe schmo on the internet). And again, it's not clear if you know what you wrote. Bila_io didn't accuse Trump of something negative. You again said: > Trump won a big swath of non-college graduates (presumably blue collar workers) he was ridiculed for having the “dumb” vote. You specifically introduced Trump being ridiculed…

Yup, you’re gaslighting.

Google it, plenty of articles with headlines like this “Now there's proof: Trump's voters lack "cognitive sophistication," often believe Bible is literal word of God”

https://www.salon.com/2022/03/23/new-research-on-voters-they...

Or maybe "Trump Won Because Voters Are Ignorant, Literally" which includes "Donald Trump always enjoyed massive support from uneducated, low-information white people."

https://foreignpolicy.com/2016/11/10/the-dance-of-the-dunces...

Happy to provide another dozen similar articles if you’d like.

I introduced nothing. I quoted articles (like the above). Sure you can be pedantic and nitpick over “cognitive sophistication” or "low-information" or "ignorant", but you know exactly what they meant - "dumb".

And what did Bila_io say? "No, he was ridiculed for [loving] the dumb vote, because he said so." I would read that as agreement that he was ridiculed for loving the "dumb" vote, the only argument being made was that Trump agreed they were "dumb" (which the clip doesn't support in the least).

And if Bila_io wasn’t accusing Trump of something negative, what was the point of the reply? Just sharing a random clip for fun?

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