Amazon workers on Staten Island vote to unionize • Hacker News Board

Re: Amazon workers on Staten Island vote to unionize

#591

Post by WalterBright » Sat, Apr 02, 2022, 5:32 AM UTC

jdmichal wrote: post #496

ARandomerDude wrote: post #398

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've been a conservative since I had a minimum wage job, for one reason: I want the government out of my life as much as possible. I firmly believe nobody will care about my family as much as I do and I don't want the government's golden handcuffs. Leave me alone, let me work, and I'll happily live with whatever happens. I think this is the fundamental disconnect in left-right (economic) politics. The left, as I see…

In my early 20's, I would have agreed 100% with your stance. But, you know what really gives people freedom and liberty? The freedom to fail without worrying about how they're going to keep a roof over their head and a meal on the table. Without worrying that they're one medical emergency away from losing everything they've worked for. You want people creating small, lifestyle businesses? Give them a safety net and l…

You're conflating security with freedom. You can have security or freedom, but not both.

Re: Amazon workers on Staten Island vote to unionize

#592

Post by [deleted] » Sat, Apr 02, 2022, 5:32 AM UTC

djrobstep wrote: post #544

josephcsible wrote: post #431

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not asking to be in the union but not pay the dues. I'm asking to not be in the union.

I’m not asking to be considered a profit contributor but not contribute to profits. I’m asking to not be a profit contributor.

[deleted]

Re: Amazon workers on Staten Island vote to unionize

#593

Post by djrobstep » Sat, Apr 02, 2022, 5:33 AM UTC

josephcsible wrote: post #566

djrobstep wrote: post #544

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m not asking to be considered a profit contributor but not contribute to profits. I’m asking to not be a profit contributor.

Isn't that just not being an employee? And no company can not let you quit.

No, I want to be an employee. I simply don't want to be forced to join the shareholder profit contributors group, as that would be an attack on liberty, free association, and voluntarism.

Re: Amazon workers on Staten Island vote to unionize

#594

Post by guerrilla » Sat, Apr 02, 2022, 5:33 AM UTC

SnowHill9902 wrote: post #555

adultSwim wrote: post #545

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Companies are disastrous in many countries. It's a broad organizational structure that can be run many different ways. I just know that at work I am alone and weak. With everyone else I would be on more equal footing with my employer. Instead of quitting, why not make my workplace better?

It’s better in the short term. After one generation or two of unions getting stronger, everybody ends up losing. There were very strong unions (and rackets) already some decades ago. See how it ended up.

Nope. Union membership has been extremely high in Sweden for ~5 generations and everyone benefits greatly from them. You'll find similar in a lot of Europe.

Re: Amazon workers on Staten Island vote to unionize

#595

Post by nessguy » Sat, Apr 02, 2022, 5:33 AM UTC

zouhair wrote: post #490

nessguy wrote: post #326

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I like the idea of unions more than the reality. My first job was earning minimum wage working full-time at Safeway. After working there for about 9 months I quit because I didn't want to pay union dues to join the union. I was already only making minimum wage, it wasn't like the union was improving my salary. The required hour long lunch breaks might have been thanks to the union, but I hated having to take hour lon…

You cannot have optional and union in the same sentence, that defeats the purpose of a union. What you are saying is I want the union to do all the work without me being hands on on its function. Unions are useless if the workers just sit idle and wait for the representatives to do all the work. Participation of all workers is what make a union powerful.

I don't see how the union was doing any worthwhile work for me back when I was making minimum wage at a grocery store. All I saw was that they wanted to skim hundreds of dollars off my meager paychecks every year.

Re: Amazon workers on Staten Island vote to unionize

#596

Post by rufus_foreman » Sat, Apr 02, 2022, 5:35 AM UTC

CapmCrackaWaka wrote: post #304

cs702 wrote: post #103

A single successful effort of unionization at an Amazon facility is more than symbolic: It will encourage -- and serve as a blueprint for -- employees at other Amazon facilities to do the same. Moreover, it will motivate employees at other large companies to try. This has been brewing for a while. It's possible we'll see a generational wave of unionization.

It's interesting to see the cyclical rise and fall of workers unions in the US. I'm of the opinion that there needs to be a balance between worker and employer rights - however it seems that, at least in the US, that balance swings back and forth quite often. It seems like anti-union proponents will remind you of the bad times when unions had too much power, and union supporters will remind you of the bad times when…

>> I'm of the opinion that there needs to be a balance between worker and employer rights

But that's not what we're talking about here. If I am making $8 an hour at my current job and Amazon is willing to pay me $15 an hour but the union says no, first of all we insist on $20 an hour and second of all we decide who gets those jobs and your name isn't on the list, that isn't worker rights, is it?

It's not worker rights or employer rights, it's union rights. Wise up. There's a long history here - certainly on Staten Island - about how this all plays out and where the money goes.

Re: Amazon workers on Staten Island vote to unionize

#597

Post by WalterBright » Sat, Apr 02, 2022, 5:38 AM UTC

jotm wrote: post #553

umvi wrote: post #499

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not convinced. There are plenty of countries with social safety nets galore, and all of them seem to have fewer freedoms and fewer small businesses created per capita than the USA.

That's because good safety nets means people don't have to take risks on business. So that leaves only the people who want to start a business. Who tend to leave for countries where it's easier to run a business and where they don't have to pay for the safety nets, but that's besides the point. As for freedoms, I don't know. Not that much of a difference between US, UK and Germany from what I can tell.

Why are the FAANG companies all based in the US?

Re: Amazon workers on Staten Island vote to unionize

#598

Post by kQq9oHeAz6wLLS » Sat, Apr 02, 2022, 5:38 AM UTC

MisterBastahrd wrote: post #520

s1artibartfast wrote: post #450

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is an uncharitable reading. Almost no one would answer that they want the government to impose positions over their personal views on those topics

Except it's accurate. Most conservatives are fair-weather individualists who only care about "liberty" in loose terms as long as the liberty that they believe is being affected is their own. We had to drag conservatives kicking and screaming over the past 30 years to allow gays to have the right to marry and openly serve in the military, just like we had to drag them kicking and screaming 60 years ago to allow minori…

Not just Republicans, though. Plenty of Democrats were against gay marriage as well - including Obama as recently as 2004.

Re: Amazon workers on Staten Island vote to unionize

#599

Post by parineum » Sat, Apr 02, 2022, 5:57 AM UTC

kevin_thibedeau wrote: post #585

parineum wrote: post #530

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Take a corporate tax loophole Tax policy you disagree with isn't a loophole.

Forward carried interest is a loophole created for the express purpose of letting the wealthy occupy a lower tax bracket. It has no other public benefit.

> loophole created for the express purpose

This is an oxymoron.

Re: Amazon workers on Staten Island vote to unionize

#600

Post by BoiledCabbage » Sat, Apr 02, 2022, 6:04 AM UTC

WalterBright wrote: post #591

jdmichal wrote: post #496

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In my early 20's, I would have agreed 100% with your stance. But, you know what really gives people freedom and liberty? The freedom to fail without worrying about how they're going to keep a roof over their head and a meal on the table. Without worrying that they're one medical emergency away from losing everything they've worked for. You want people creating small, lifestyle businesses? Give them a safety net and l…

You're conflating security with freedom. You can have security or freedom, but not both.

You absolutely can have both, because the world does not boil down to simplistic either or choices. You can argue that freedom and security are oppostite poles of a sliding scale, and most people would agree with you. But nobody wants absolute freedom (anarchy and literal lawlessness) nor does anyone want absolute security. People want degrees of both.

It's a naieve mindset to think it's all or nothing.