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I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

drewdevault.com

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Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#631

Post by jjoonathan »

rkangel wrote: post #530
jjoonathan wrote: post #391

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Windows patch auto-revert-settings is cancer. It breaks my bluetooth every time and my setup is very typical so it probably does it to millions of others. Details: Bluetooth headphones with microphones actually show up as 3 sound devices, one high quality output device and a pair of low quality input and output devices. Whenever a microphone is requested, the low quality pair is selected. Output quality goes to shit…

> Since many apps request microphone access for non-obvious reasons Interesting. I have what appears to be exactly the same bluetooth headset setup (Bose QuietComfort 35s), and use it all day every day while at work. I have the slightly annoying thing that if I'm in a video conference all normal audio isn't heard (unless I switch the default audio output), but I only get that when actively in a VC. I have never had '…

Yes, video conferencing does it, but so does slack sometimes at startup, discord does it if you join a voice-enabled room, flash (RIP) used to do it in our HR time tracking app, and at home deviantart.com does it and games do it. However, whether or not a competent and interested nerd can figure out the underlying logic is completely beside the point. Normies don't stand a chance, so they just put up with (from their perspective) randomly broken or low-quality audio, until they can't, at which point they restart, switch devices, or maybe even buy a new device.

Any one of {Bluetooth SIG, device manufacturer, Microsoft} could have independently fixed the issue. Every one of them should have forseen it. None of them foresaw it and none of them fixed it, and years later it still lingers. Yikes.

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#632

Post by zamadatix »

ChiefOBrien wrote: post #578

I'm tired of this pro-Wayland horseshit You have been trying to reinvent the wheel for a decade and splitting the whole community on petty shit like this, halving development effort on an already non-popular platform, and yet you wonder why people are angry. Instead of evolving X11 and deprecating old features to drop tech debt over time, you went and created your snowflake project and paraded over how much more secu…

Eh, if a bunch of X11 devs were tired enough of X11 they decided to drop it for working on Wayland I'm not upset at them for working on what they want to work on rather than what I want them to work on. I'll gladly take reinventing the wheel every 30 years over people dropping out altogether, though if they want to that's fine it's their own time and energy. If they did it for their own reasons instead of the community I'm glad if I still find value in what they made and indifferent if I didn't. It's not like I paid them to make me something or they owe me something.

I do wish tensions about it could be lower. I think there is real damage for all any time they rise.

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#633

Post by gpm »

bartvk wrote: post #558
gpm wrote: post #362

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It does support Linux, just fine, on x11... It's also the only option for a significant portion of machine learning software. Meanwhile we (or at least I) aren't asking any unpaid volunteers to fix anything. We're asking them to stop claiming their new software works for practically every use case when it doesn't, nothing more.

> We're asking them to stop claiming their new software works for practically every use case Who is 'them' here? Is that Drew DeVault, or can you point to someone else specifically?

In general I don't want to name individuals, because I don't think that's productive. "Them" is a convenient way of keeping arguments from being overly personal.

In this specific case I guess it is fair to say it's Drew, since he wrote the article we're commenting on. I don't think he's alone in his statements on wayland though.

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#634

Post by cycloptic »

bitwize wrote: post #520
AnIdiotOnTheNet wrote: post #28

> In the case of Wayland, the “vague authority” are a bunch of volunteers who have devoted tens of thousands of hours of their free time towards making free shit for you. That does not mean anyone is under an obligation to like it. > Maybe Wayland doesn’t work for your precious use-case. More likely, it does work, and you swallowed some propaganda based on an assumption which might have been correct 7 years ago. If y…

> Wayland's biggest mistakes were not launching with a coherent strategy for replicating functionality like screen sharing, screenshots, and to a lesser extent remote desktop/applications. It's not just about replicating this functionality. It's about having an open framework that makes building these tools, and other unforeseen tools, easy. X11 was very accommodating of this. For example, I like to run xsnow during…

I'm not sure what are the changes in the X11 server implementation you're talking about, but if they do indeed meet every single possible use case, then maybe someone can bring them over to Wayland? I'm sorry to say, but you have to acknowledge these are novelty applications and are really not driving progress right now, the main focus is in getting all the other applications to work.

FYI there is some prior art for poking a security hole in the Wayland server to support X11 features, but obviously not all implementations will want to support this: https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/wayland/wayland-protocols/-/b...

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#635

Post by [deleted] »

NoodleIncident wrote: post #415
cturner wrote: post #276

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Remote windowing is a legacy of the era when universities ran dozens of dumb terminals from a server. It would be bizarre to pursue that in an era of hardware-accelerated graphics. If the Wayland design was weighed down by such things, it could never hope to be progress.

Universities still do that. It's not that bizarre of a use case

[deleted]

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#636

Post by carapace »

Nicely ranted.

I'm one who feels that ranting is a kind of art (or can be profitably interpreted that way), and well-formed rant counts as art.

This is a good rant, not great, but heartfelt and sincere with judicious use of curse words and rhetorical flourish.

(For greatness in ranting see the work of Mickens, perhaps our finest performing ranter of the day. https://mickens.seas.harvard.edu/wisdom-james-mickens )

- - - -

On a tangent, I've been keeping an eye on the Arcan project https://arcan-fe.com/

> Arcan is a powerful development framework for creating virtually anything between user interfaces for specialised embedded applications all the way to full-blown standalone desktop environments.

> At its heart lies a robust and portable multimedia engine, with a well-tested and well-documented interface, programmable using Lua.

(Nothing against Wayland, I'm just mentioning it to say something potentially useful to someone.)

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#637

Post by User23 »

innagadadavida wrote: post #449
pmlnr wrote: post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's not just the FOSS community, look at how non technical people react every time gmail, outlook or excel makes a tiny change to the UI (not to mention big ones). It really makes people angry when things don't work the same anymore, let alone when it doesn't even work anymore for their use case. Most of them are too frequent, automatic, plus they are not actual improvements.

> Most of them are too frequent, automatic, plus they are not actual improvements. It seems like the developers and product managers want to show progress but the uses just want you to fix boring bugs. It will help if the product folks think of memory, perf and stability as very important features and stop chasing new features for the sake of it.

I've never seen someone get promoted for leaving something that's already great alone.

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#638

Post by zamadatix »

wing-_-nuts wrote: post #626

The biggest beef I have with wayland is it's security model. Ok, you don't want to let other applications listen to keystrokes, record the screen, etc, by default? Fine. There should be some low level implementation that pops up a box asking the user if they wish to allow that app to do that, not outright breaking the practice! Wayland feels like some ivy tower academic's ideal of what a display system should be. Eve…

I was really hoping Wayland would be a bit like a programming language in that aspect. I.e. in a programming you have the language itself, the stdlib, and then the ability to load whatever other library you want. In Wayland you have Wayland itself and the ability to load whatever other stuff you want. For core use cases like screen sharing this approach has been an absolute pain. I get not wanting to specify screen sharing as part of Wayland itself but that doesn't mean throwing it to the crowd was a good answer.

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#639

Post by BoysenberryPi »

fullstop wrote: post #136
BoysenberryPi wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No problem, the biggest ones I tried were Godot, Krita, and Steam. Godot does not run on Wayland although support seems to be planned somewhere down the pipeline. Krita "runs" on Wayland but a lot of the features do not work nor does pen support last time I checked. Steam just doesn't work. Edit: A commenter on this thread mentioned Emacs. I have not tried that as I have recently switched to Emacs but if that is true…

I have a Linux PC that my kids mostly use, running Wayland sessions. It definitely works with Steam and Krita, although I admit that I do not know if all of Krita's features work. They have played Portal 2, Minecraft, and a few "windows-only" games with Proton. My biggest gripe is that if you have more than one window of Chrome open it gets VERY slow. Multiple tabs are good, multiple windows are not.

This is good info. I'll spin up a VM running Sway or something and give it another go and see what roadblocks I hit.

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#640

Post by cycloptic »

spion wrote: post #586
alisonkisk wrote: post #537

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Config file converters are completely outside of the wheelhouse of the graphics team. Anyone can step up and build those without any graphics programming knowledge.

No, its not a programming problem, its a herding problem. That person will have to have the ability to get all 3 implementations to agree to read and write compositing configuration the same way, so users don't have to suffer.

The thing is, Wayland actually is an improvement here, because now you only have to reconcile the configuration between those implementations, compared to before where you had to do that in addition to munging configuration and state stored in the X server and in xorg.conf. It would be nice if all desktops agreed on a configuration format and a default set of options, but I don't know that we will ever get there.
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