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I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

drewdevault.com

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Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#551

Post by unethical_ban »

tylersmith wrote: post #536
unethical_ban wrote: post #316

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hot take: Maybe, if you're building something (or especially changing something) as a SME that many people use, and you fuck it up in a way most people don't like, you're still a jerk. Maybe. I think the discussion should happen. Because I don't think "I wrote it, if you don't like it, you write it" is a 100% defense to hordes of upset users.

There's no defense needed; nobody is on trial. These hordes of users can start paying for developers if they want certain work done.

You got me! The word defense is, in fact, only used in courts of law.

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#552

Post by KingOfCoders »

AnthonyMouse wrote: post #538
patrickaljord wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I can certainly understand the frustration at having to deal with a community that gets annoyed at anything that changes simply because they're already so used to the garbage pile they have that they now hold the delusion that it's actually not garbage. It's not just the FOSS community, look at how non technical people react every time gmail, outlook or excel makes a tiny change to the UI (not to mention big ones).…

> It's not just the FOSS community, look at how non technical people react every time gmail, outlook or excel makes a tiny change to the UI (not to mention big ones). It really makes people angry when things don't work the same anymore, let alone when it doesn't even work anymore for their use case. As well it should. Because now things that used to take three seconds will take 15 minutes for a month until you learn…

I was working at a large real estate marketplace. Product management came up with a nice new UI for the backend every two months, because that was what they loved to do - also lots of designers hanging around that need to work! Real estate broker - the customers - hated it of course, they only wanted to get their job done, not relearn the UI every two months.

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#553

Post by 6gvONxR4sf7o »

_ktx2 wrote: post #535
SEJeff wrote: post #191

The author is kind of a jerk. He complains that users don't like wayland when he entirely and wholesale rejects anyone who wants to use an nvidia graphics card. Maintainers with attitudes like this are why we can't have nice things: https://drewdevault.com/2017/10/26/Fuck-you-nvidia.html Sadly, the OSS driver doesn't support the 4k monitors I use for work well enough to actually use day to day. So my option is to use…

Drew Devault is an interesting character. I find some of the ways he chooses to express himself to be pretty poor most of the time . That said, Drew does come from a place of genuine caring, erratic, divisive, and brusque opinions aside. You just have to learn to filter out most of the useless anger and frustration he tends to speak with. All that to say, nvidia doesn't really do the work to play ball in Linux with W…

A lot of OP seems to be him complaining about that same behavior in users, which is straight up hypocrisy. It’s bad for his mental health when people do it to him, but he’s not part of the problem or anything.

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#554

Post by cturner »

AnIdiotOnTheNet wrote: post #431
cturner wrote: post #276

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Remote windowing is a legacy of the era when universities ran dozens of dumb terminals from a server. It would be bizarre to pursue that in an era of hardware-accelerated graphics. If the Wayland design was weighed down by such things, it could never hope to be progress.

It is actually a common enough use case that Windows supports it now via Remote App, which is bit of a hack over RDP since RDP wasn't really designed for that. The use case may be relatively small but it undeniably still exists.

It is reasonable to want remote desktop access. I am unfamiliar with the RDP technique you raise, but expect it could be achieved through VNC or similar systems.

X-Windows is itself a weak response to remote access. I have memories of trying to use Oracle Forms over a modem connection to uni, and finding it far inferior to VNC connections to work systems - effectively unusable.

The remote-windowing mechanisms of X-Windows are coupled to aspects of X-Windows that Wayland was created to overcome. The video 'The Real Story Behind Wayland and X - Daniel Stone' discusses this.

Microsoft Windows does not do remote-windowing in the X-Windows sense. RDP is not Explorer. From what I read, a RDP-like-thing could be built, and Wayland would not get in the way of this. I think the Wayland team make a clear case for why this is out-of-scope for them.

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#555

Post by beshrkayali »

Equating between flatearthers/antivaxers and criticism of Wayland has got to be a prime example of False equivalence [1].

This style of argumentation is as bad (if not worse) than baseless rejection of Wayland because of "vague" criticism.

If I try to read between the lines, the author is worried that if more people don't jump ship and switch to Wayland, suffering through whatever trouble they might face, Wayland won't get better faster. Which although true, is a very selfish argument that does not see beyond the author's own use case.

I'd like to try Wayland sometime, so far I haven't. I don't think there will be a lot of issues that I'll have to get around, but honestly I'm not looking to find out right now. I use Xorg and I'm happy. At some point, I'll try Wayland.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_equivalence

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#556

Post by popcornarsonist »

pmoriarty wrote: post #402
creata wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If it's not too much trouble, can you list the software you use which doesn't work on Wayland?

It's a couple of years old, but this post on "Why I'm not going to switch to Wayland yet." [1] summarizes some of the concerns I have about switching to Wayland: "at the moment there are several types of applications that not only don't work in wayland, but would be very difficult, or impossible to work natively in all major wayland compositors. Examples (in order of importance to me): * Programmatic output configura…

  * It's not exactly the same, but I use Kanshi for dynamic output configuration. https://github.com/emersion/kanshi
  * https://github.com/bugaevc/wl-clipboard
  * https://hg.sr.ht/~scoopta/wofi
  * https://github.com/yory8/clipman
  * There's wlrobs for OBS. There's grim/slurp/wl-recorder for use outside of OBS.
  * You can use grim to grab a particular color on the screen, but the UI wouldn't be as good, of course.

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#557

Post by Null-Set »

ohgodplsno wrote: post #373
lewispollard wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I've been down this road a lot with FOSS software: "I don't use it because it doesn't do what I need", "sure it does!", "no, it really doesn't", "well you don't need that anyway!"... Just recently (I was on a Fedora box temporarily) I was trying to figure out how to get Nautilus to stop starting a search whenever I typed something, and instead highlight the nearest match in the current directory, y'know, like prett…

> I don't understand how that gives you dictatorial power over 100s of users who don't like the changes you've made. Those hundreds of user are: 1. A vocal minority, most likely. People happy about it don't go on bug trackers to support devs. 2. Not making the software, not part of the decision making process. Don't like the end result ? Fork it if you have the ability. Give constructive criticism if you want and you…

Why are these people not part of the decison making process?

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#558

Post by bartvk »

gpm wrote: post #362
kuschku wrote: post #290

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or you start buying a GPU that actually supports linux? If you buy a proprietary product with no actual linux support, then why are you complaining to the unpaid volunteer to fix it, and not the multi-billion dollar company you just made several hundred dollars richer?

It does support Linux, just fine, on x11... It's also the only option for a significant portion of machine learning software. Meanwhile we (or at least I) aren't asking any unpaid volunteers to fix anything. We're asking them to stop claiming their new software works for practically every use case when it doesn't, nothing more.

> We're asking them to stop claiming their new software works for practically every use case

Who is 'them' here? Is that Drew DeVault, or can you point to someone else specifically?

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#559

Post by cycloptic »

AnIdiotOnTheNet wrote: post #393
Miraste wrote: post #241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In my experience Gnome is the worst major FOSS project for this. Ever since Gnome 3 the design philosophy of all of their projects seems to be "find out what the users want and do the opposite."

Yeah seriously. The Gnome project is go-to example of non-ad-driven user-hostile FOSS software development.

I have no idea why it has become so common on here to dog on GNOME for being "user-hostile" because they targeted a different kind of user than the average HN engineer/startup person. You can use one of the "GNOME 2 revival" type desktop environments if that's your fancy.
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