Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

drewdevault.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

531–540 of 892 posts

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#531

Post by alisonkisk »

DCKing wrote: post #163
londons_explore wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Every 6 months I try switching to Wayland. I spend an hour or so using it for regular desktop gnome use and fixing minor bugs (ie. The kind I can fix with a config tweak). I then switch back again because it just isn't there yet. Recent issues: * The brightness control for my screen doesn't work with it. * The mouse sometimes lags * Graphical corruption in Chromium when on webgl sites. * Blank screen after resume fro…

I'm beating a dead horse at this point, but there's no such thing as "switching to Wayland". What most people mean when they "switch to Wayland" is that they're switching from Gnome on X11 to a "pure Gnome" stack that uses Wayland and a bunch of other Freedesktop standards for interopability. There is absolutely no code from the "Wayland project" running there, because the Wayland implementation is Gnome's own (it's…

"3 incomplete implementations and 0 complete implementations." Is Desktop Linux's epitaph.

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#532

Post by vetinari »

silisili wrote: post #150
AnIdiotOnTheNet wrote: post #28

> In the case of Wayland, the “vague authority” are a bunch of volunteers who have devoted tens of thousands of hours of their free time towards making free shit for you. That does not mean anyone is under an obligation to like it. > Maybe Wayland doesn’t work for your precious use-case. More likely, it does work, and you swallowed some propaganda based on an assumption which might have been correct 7 years ago. If y…

Agreed. Tried Wayland again last year. Screen sharing in Electron doesn't work, so can't share screen in Slack. Googled, known issue. I don't care how much better Wayland is...if it can't do something I'm used to and need, it's going in the trash. I don't have time or interest to read mailing lists and bug trackers to know when it's fixed.

So Slack didn't bother building with `rtc_use_pipewi­re=true` and that's Wayland's problem?

Complain to Slack.

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#533

Post by leephillips »

zamadatix wrote: post #504
leephillips wrote: post #419

Earlier quoted context omitted.

OK. I may want to try it, in that case. Do you know if there is a good guide somewhere to how to do this? The idea seems a bit scary, as X11 is embedded pretty deeply into the system.

I did it on a fresh secondary install first just to get an understanding of what I wanted to do. If you were going for a more prepackaged system like KDE it's just a click but dwm -> sway is basically rebuilding everything you did in dwm and (at least for me) couldn't be done in one shot on a Saturday afternoon. I hear if you're coming from i3 it's dead simple but I was coming from KDE basically so had to figure ever…

Thanks, I appreciate the detailed reply.

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#534

Post by irishsultan »

cycloptic wrote: post #284
shadowgovt wrote: post #262

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not a developer on Wayland and I haven't looked at the code, so I can't comment directly on their situation. A hypothetical I can come up with is that if they've tried to implement a very secure architecture, they may have painted themselves into a corner if there's no easy way to capture pixels post-composite... Then no one piece of the system has enough authority to see all the pixels to capture an arbitrary sc…

Security is one of the major reasons, and this is indeed a privileged operation that should not be accessible by all clients. The other reason is that this isn't base functionality, for example an embedded implementation has no need for screenshots.

> The other reason is that this isn't base functionality, for example an embedded implementation has no need for screenshots.

I'm unsure what kind of graphical environment you can imagine where screenshots are not useful at all (if only to capture the screen when something weird is going on).

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#535

Post by _ktx2 »

SEJeff wrote: post #191

The author is kind of a jerk. He complains that users don't like wayland when he entirely and wholesale rejects anyone who wants to use an nvidia graphics card. Maintainers with attitudes like this are why we can't have nice things: https://drewdevault.com/2017/10/26/Fuck-you-nvidia.html Sadly, the OSS driver doesn't support the 4k monitors I use for work well enough to actually use day to day. So my option is to use…

Drew Devault is an interesting character. I find some of the ways he chooses to express himself to be pretty poor most of the time. That said, Drew does come from a place of genuine caring, erratic, divisive, and brusque opinions aside. You just have to learn to filter out most of the useless anger and frustration he tends to speak with.

All that to say, nvidia doesn't really do the work to play ball in Linux with Wayland. There is no way to improve these drivers, you can only hope Nouveau can solve your woes.

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#536

Post by tylersmith »

unethical_ban wrote: post #316
zabzonk wrote: post #242

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't understand how that gives you dictatorial power over 100s of users who don't like the changes you've made. It doesn't - you are completely free to roll back those changes, or make different changes of your own.

Hot take: Maybe, if you're building something (or especially changing something) as a SME that many people use, and you fuck it up in a way most people don't like, you're still a jerk. Maybe. I think the discussion should happen. Because I don't think "I wrote it, if you don't like it, you write it" is a 100% defense to hordes of upset users.

There's no defense needed; nobody is on trial. These hordes of users can start paying for developers if they want certain work done.

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#537

Post by alisonkisk »

spion wrote: post #518
DCKing wrote: post #315

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I honestly think this complaint is completely bogus. This is not something conceptual about Wayland, or intrinsic to it. Any display protocol can have multiple client/server implementations. It just so happens that most of the free desktop standardized around the X.org implementation for X11, but even for X11 there were multiple client and server implementations. The second thing is that software duplication efforts…

Once there are 2 implementations already, a 3rd reusable one won't fix the problem (the problem being that the users need to configure everything in 3 places). What you want at that point is to agree where to read and write common configuration. I'm not sure this is likely to happen either, as gnome has gsettings/dconf and kde has simple files and you will now awaken the plaintext vs efficiency dragon.

Config file converters are completely outside of the wheelhouse of the graphics team. Anyone can step up and build those without any graphics programming knowledge.

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#538

Post by AnthonyMouse »

patrickaljord wrote: post #65
AnIdiotOnTheNet wrote: post #28

> In the case of Wayland, the “vague authority” are a bunch of volunteers who have devoted tens of thousands of hours of their free time towards making free shit for you. That does not mean anyone is under an obligation to like it. > Maybe Wayland doesn’t work for your precious use-case. More likely, it does work, and you swallowed some propaganda based on an assumption which might have been correct 7 years ago. If y…

> I can certainly understand the frustration at having to deal with a community that gets annoyed at anything that changes simply because they're already so used to the garbage pile they have that they now hold the delusion that it's actually not garbage. It's not just the FOSS community, look at how non technical people react every time gmail, outlook or excel makes a tiny change to the UI (not to mention big ones).…

> It's not just the FOSS community, look at how non technical people react every time gmail, outlook or excel makes a tiny change to the UI (not to mention big ones). It really makes people angry when things don't work the same anymore, let alone when it doesn't even work anymore for their use case.

As well it should. Because now things that used to take three seconds will take 15 minutes for a month until you learn the new interface.

The designer will respond that yes, but then once you learn the new thing it will take two seconds. And if you save one second twice a day then you'll have made back that 10 hours you spent learning the new thing in less than 50 years!

Except that they're going to change it again in less than 50 years.

And that's assuming that the new design is actually better and not just different or worse, because also, this:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25950351

Rule of thumb: If the new thing isn't better enough to cause people to switch to it voluntarily without any prodding or the removal of the option to use the old thing, it isn't better enough to be worth it.

Post reply on HN