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I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

drewdevault.com

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Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#391

Post by jjoonathan »

cafard wrote: post #313
patrickaljord wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I can certainly understand the frustration at having to deal with a community that gets annoyed at anything that changes simply because they're already so used to the garbage pile they have that they now hold the delusion that it's actually not garbage. It's not just the FOSS community, look at how non technical people react every time gmail, outlook or excel makes a tiny change to the UI (not to mention big ones).…

Hah. I greatly prefer the Windows start menu that went away with Windows 8, and had previously configured this Windows 10 machine to use it. Then yesterday I installed patches, and it's back to the Windows 10.

Windows patch auto-revert-settings is cancer. It breaks my bluetooth every time and my setup is very typical so it probably does it to millions of others.

Details: Bluetooth headphones with microphones actually show up as 3 sound devices, one high quality output device and a pair of low quality input and output devices. Whenever a microphone is requested, the low quality pair is selected. Output quality goes to shit and any apps that don't get the memo will still send its audio to the high quality output device which has since become an inactive sinkhole. Since many apps request microphone access for non-obvious reasons, the symptoms are that you do something non-audio-related and sound in the rest of the system does some combination of {go to shit, stop working} on a per-app basis. The solution is to disable the low quality input and output devices, which keeps sound output functional and high-quality until Windows Update reverts your settings and sets the stage for the next microphone access to break bluetooth audio again. Ugh.

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#392

Post by ddevault »

seabird wrote: post #301

It's really rich when these types get riled up about software having very obvious flaws. I respect the author and really want to like Wayland, but there's big things missing. I recently installed Fedora after my Windows install bombed out after an update. I went to play World of Warcraft with my buddies and found that the mouse handling in Wayland was pretty severely broken, at least for WoW. You move by clicking bot…

Author of the OP here. What you're describing is a bad experience with GNOME, not with Wayland. Each of your examples works great on most other Wayland compositors.

The ignorance which leads you to blame it on Wayland is a major part of the same frustrations I'm venting in this rant. No one is saying you can go fuck yourself for wanting these use-cases. We're saying you can go fuck yourself because we made these use-cases work for you, and you still blame it on Wayland when GNOME is the one not playing ball.

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#393

Post by AnIdiotOnTheNet »

Miraste wrote: post #241
lewispollard wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I've been down this road a lot with FOSS software: "I don't use it because it doesn't do what I need", "sure it does!", "no, it really doesn't", "well you don't need that anyway!"... Just recently (I was on a Fedora box temporarily) I was trying to figure out how to get Nautilus to stop starting a search whenever I typed something, and instead highlight the nearest match in the current directory, y'know, like prett…

In my experience Gnome is the worst major FOSS project for this. Ever since Gnome 3 the design philosophy of all of their projects seems to be "find out what the users want and do the opposite."

Yeah seriously. The Gnome project is go-to example of non-ad-driven user-hostile FOSS software development.

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#394

Post by mongol »

Fellshard wrote: post #321
DCKing wrote: post #233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because if what's bothering you is the implementation and not the protocol, you should be talking about fixing the implementation instead of diverting attention to the protocol? I might not understand your question here.

If every implementation of a protocol seems stuck with deal-breaking bugs or incompatibilities, it's time to start asking whether the protocol itself has some problems that make it impossible to implement consistently - unstated assumptions, for example, in the reference implementation that never made it to the protocol spec. For a modern example of this in action, see Bluetooth and the madhouse of device 'quirks' yo…

It is like blaming HTTP because of the cookie warnings you get everywhere. Yes, cookies are part of HTTP, but the warnings are not.

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#395

Post by betterunix2 »

foldr wrote: post #244
barrkel wrote: post #226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They can; but they shouldn't expect a life free of complaints. Commercial software, like most things in life, is responsive to incentives. The people who buy things get the most say in the product. For open source where the end users aren't buying anything, and the developers are either creating product for their own gratification, or for some more nebulous corporate goal, the incentives are rather indirect. And that…

>but they shouldn't expect a life free of complaints. This seems to be the dominant culture, but it's actually pretty toxic that people feel entitled to whine about software created by people who owe them absolutely nothing. Constructive feedback is useful, and appropriate if the creator indicates that they want it. Whining and ranting is a waste of energy. It makes people feel bad and leads to no beneficial change.…

"people who owe them absolutely nothing"

What makes you think people owe nothing to each other in the open source ecosystem? I maintain a package for Fedora, I have submitted a few patches to the Linux Kernel, and I regularly report bugs. Do the Wayland developers not benefit from any of the above?

Even my mother, who is not very technical, has managed to identify bugs here and there which I report on her behalf. Do the Gnome developers not benefit from that?

We cannot all be contributors to every package we use, but we are all part of an ecosystem and we all have the right to ask for changes by others in that ecosystem. You call it whining, but you know what? When developers break use cases, users have the right to complain about it. If the Wayland developers do not want to hear those complaints, they should not be involved in developing software that millions of people depend on, nor should they have tried to replace software that millions of people depend on.

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#396

Post by tengbretson »

DCKing wrote: post #163
londons_explore wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Every 6 months I try switching to Wayland. I spend an hour or so using it for regular desktop gnome use and fixing minor bugs (ie. The kind I can fix with a config tweak). I then switch back again because it just isn't there yet. Recent issues: * The brightness control for my screen doesn't work with it. * The mouse sometimes lags * Graphical corruption in Chromium when on webgl sites. * Blank screen after resume fro…

I'm beating a dead horse at this point, but there's no such thing as "switching to Wayland". What most people mean when they "switch to Wayland" is that they're switching from Gnome on X11 to a "pure Gnome" stack that uses Wayland and a bunch of other Freedesktop standards for interopability. There is absolutely no code from the "Wayland project" running there, because the Wayland implementation is Gnome's own (it's…

> ...or as I've recently taken to calling it, Gnome plus Wayland

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#397

Post by arghwhat »

dleslie wrote: post #296
ahendriksen wrote: post #222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Emacs works perfectly fine under xwayland. The recent pgtk feature branch does not use X anymore under wayland. What is not working for you?

Yes, when Wayland acts like X then X apps sometimes work. In the process you abandon the security and performance features of Wayland. Getting xwayland working is another story. I can't seem to get it to work at all on my PinePhone; but to Wayland's credit, the phone crashes for all sorts of reasons.

Yeah, Wayland needs to act like X when using a pure X application.

But emacs X/"gtk" frontend has been controversial for a few reasons, with work having been under way for quite a while for a new frontend, somewhat unrelated to Wayland.

Xwayland not working on pinephone is ironically primarily an X problem, as Xwayland is just xorg-server compiled with only the Wayland backend enabled.

And, as there are little to no xorg developers, fixing xorg is proving tricky as there is no one to make a new xorg release...

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#398

Post by ohgodplsno »

znpy wrote: post #272
BoysenberryPi wrote: post #31

I have no beef with Wayland specifically and I agree that if you are harassing maintainers of any project you're probably an asshole. However, >Maybe Wayland doesn’t work for your precious use-case. More likely, it does work, and you swallowed some propaganda based on an assumption which might have been correct 7 years ago. I'm a game developer. None of the software I use works reliably or at all on Wayland. None of…

that's imho the core problem with wayland advocates: - if you rely on something that doesn't currently work on wayland and you write about it on (for example) hacker news then you're the asshole and you should be dropping that something and switch to wayland (which of course, most of us cannot do) - if your current setup works and you'd rater spend your time doing your stuff instead of rebuilding on wayland, you're a…

Let's be honest, most wayland advocates do not give a single shit about people sticking on xorg.

They might care a little bit more when their only interactions are with snarky people going "sO yOu StILl CaN'T tAKe ScReEnShOts oN wAyLaNd haHaHa sHiTtY sOftWare", or legitimate assholes.

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#399

Post by away_throw »

axaxs wrote: post #376
away_throw wrote: post #365

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I believe that this is being fixed soon if you compile Electron with "Ozone" support. Otherwise, I use the current workaround of using OBS with a "virtual webcam" which allows me to stream OBS to a webcam and just use my webcam as the screenshare. Actually ends up working better than any screenshare utility that I've used.

This doesn't seem as straightforward as 'click the screenshare button to share your screen', which is how it works in xorg mode. Editing since I can't reply - I didn't mean to come across as rude, sorry for that. Just explaining that as a user, it doesn't work out of the box. Having to explain to users to do the above is not an ideal solution.

That's true. Hopefully Ozone will be officially released in Chromium/Electron which will make this as simple as that. At least in Discord, XOrg screenshare always gave me trouble.

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#400

Post by ahendriksen »

one_comment wrote: post #311
ahendriksen wrote: post #222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Emacs works perfectly fine under xwayland. The recent pgtk feature branch does not use X anymore under wayland. What is not working for you?

The note "segfaults on multiple displays" in the readme made me stay away from that.

I have been plugging and unplugging multiple displays into my laptop since March. Usually I have emacs running locally (xwayland) and an emacsclient over X11 to a remote server. I have not experienced any issues so far. Maybe the readme is too conservative in this regard?
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