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I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

drewdevault.com

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Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#621

Post by UIZealot »

patrickaljord wrote: post #65
AnIdiotOnTheNet wrote: post #28

> In the case of Wayland, the “vague authority” are a bunch of volunteers who have devoted tens of thousands of hours of their free time towards making free shit for you. That does not mean anyone is under an obligation to like it. > Maybe Wayland doesn’t work for your precious use-case. More likely, it does work, and you swallowed some propaganda based on an assumption which might have been correct 7 years ago. If y…

> I can certainly understand the frustration at having to deal with a community that gets annoyed at anything that changes simply because they're already so used to the garbage pile they have that they now hold the delusion that it's actually not garbage. It's not just the FOSS community, look at how non technical people react every time gmail, outlook or excel makes a tiny change to the UI (not to mention big ones).…

> It's not just the FOSS community, look at how non technical people react every time gmail, outlook or excel makes a tiny change to the UI (not to mention big ones).

Nice try Google/Microsoft developer! I'm pretty technical, your sh*t change is still sh*t.

I remember a time when updates from gmail, outlook, or excel improved upon the previous version, sadly that was about 15/20 years ago for Google/Microsoft, respectively.

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#622

Post by cycloptic »

utborin wrote: post #597
cycloptic wrote: post #569

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you read the fine print there is, quite literally, no obligation at all. From the MIT license: THE SOFTWARE IS PROVIDED "AS IS", WITHOUT WARRANTY OF ANY KIND, EXPRESS OR IMPLIED, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO THE WARRANTIES OF MERCHANTABILITY, FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE AND NONINFRINGEMENT. You will find that most other FOSS licenses contain a similar clause.

That's a legal disclaimer designed to head off a specific commercial legal liability. If you go looking to use law as a foundation for right and wrong, you're going to be sorely disappointed.

What I quoted isn't a law, this is something that authors have to deliberately put in their licenses/contracts for the specific work in question. If you wish to have other obligations with your open source software that you believe are less wrong, it would be wise to get those in writing.

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#623

Post by skratlo »

dleslie wrote: post #102
BoysenberryPi wrote: post #31

I have no beef with Wayland specifically and I agree that if you are harassing maintainers of any project you're probably an asshole. However, >Maybe Wayland doesn’t work for your precious use-case. More likely, it does work, and you swallowed some propaganda based on an assumption which might have been correct 7 years ago. I'm a game developer. None of the software I use works reliably or at all on Wayland. None of…

Hell, Emacs doesn't work in Wayland.

Hell does, and way better than on Xorg, less latency. Why do your spread lies? There's a pgtk and native-comp branch.

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#624

Post by bjourne »

R0b0t1 wrote: post #414
rbanffy wrote: post #375

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It is actually one of the big, unfixable, conceptual problems of Wayland Why not have a shared implementation?

Because then you end up with something like X11, which we already have. The codebase could be re-engineered, sure, but a lot of people championing Wayland tend to see this duplication of effort as good for some reason, and at least last I engaged with them did not like the idea of a "new X11." Personally I think something like that is an inevitability.

> Because then you end up with something like X11, which we already have.

X11 is a protocol. What you mean is that we end up with something like Xorg, an implementation of X11. Which is still incorrect because a major design goal of Wayland is to move as much logic as possible from the server to the client.

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#625

Post by TheCapeGreek »

znpy wrote: post #272
BoysenberryPi wrote: post #31

I have no beef with Wayland specifically and I agree that if you are harassing maintainers of any project you're probably an asshole. However, >Maybe Wayland doesn’t work for your precious use-case. More likely, it does work, and you swallowed some propaganda based on an assumption which might have been correct 7 years ago. I'm a game developer. None of the software I use works reliably or at all on Wayland. None of…

that's imho the core problem with wayland advocates: - if you rely on something that doesn't currently work on wayland and you write about it on (for example) hacker news then you're the asshole and you should be dropping that something and switch to wayland (which of course, most of us cannot do) - if your current setup works and you'd rater spend your time doing your stuff instead of rebuilding on wayland, you're a…

> Most wayland advocates can't seem to understand the philosopy of "I don't really care about xorg vs wayland, my current xorg-based setup works well enough for me, i'll switch when I can be equally productive on wayland".

Same rehash the same arguments of Linux vs Windows that people have been having for years. It's turtles all the way down :)

It's only less common nowadays around these parts since tux has become far more usable day-to-day in the last decade.

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#626

Post by wing-_-nuts »

The biggest beef I have with wayland is it's security model. Ok, you don't want to let other applications listen to keystrokes, record the screen, etc, by default? Fine. There should be some low level implementation that pops up a box asking the user if they wish to allow that app to do that, not outright breaking the practice!

Wayland feels like some ivy tower academic's ideal of what a display system should be. Everything usable is an 'exercise left to the reader'.

Look, if you're a dev working on an open source project meant to replace a critical piece of infrastructure, don't be surprised when people don't like or adopt it when it breaks a lot of their uses cases.

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#627

Post by 6gvONxR4sf7o »

ddevault wrote: post #608
6gvONxR4sf7o wrote: post #605

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You and I are reading the criticism differently. There’s genuine assholery, 100%. You’re entirely right that those people just make everything worse, and I’m sorry let you have to deal with them. The other side of things is what I see differently. When folks are saying wayland isn’t ready, or even that it sucks, I mostly see them as referring to the ecosystem, not wayland itself. It’s an unfortunate quirk of language…

>I’m out going to engage further with you on that because you called me a shitty consumer and that pisses me off. Fuck me, you don’t want me in your userbase anyways, right? Yeah. Nvidia is engaging in shitty behavior, and I've outlined my argument for this. It's shitty to reward this behavior by buying their thousand-dollar GPUs. And, yes, I think that doing so anyway makes you a shitty consumer. And, yes, I don't w…

Good luck, and I wish you users with the same understanding and respect for your choices. I hope nobody calls you a shitty developer because you made choices they don’t appreciate.

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#628

Post by skratlo »

fullstop wrote: post #136
BoysenberryPi wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No problem, the biggest ones I tried were Godot, Krita, and Steam. Godot does not run on Wayland although support seems to be planned somewhere down the pipeline. Krita "runs" on Wayland but a lot of the features do not work nor does pen support last time I checked. Steam just doesn't work. Edit: A commenter on this thread mentioned Emacs. I have not tried that as I have recently switched to Emacs but if that is true…

I have a Linux PC that my kids mostly use, running Wayland sessions. It definitely works with Steam and Krita, although I admit that I do not know if all of Krita's features work. They have played Portal 2, Minecraft, and a few "windows-only" games with Proton. My biggest gripe is that if you have more than one window of Chrome open it gets VERY slow. Multiple tabs are good, multiple windows are not.

This should help you:

chromium --enable-features=UseOzonePlatform --ozone-platform=wayland & disown & exit

You can also adjust your .desktop Chrome launcher to use these flags

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#629

Post by slabity »

SEJeff wrote: post #516
kuschku wrote: post #290

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or you start buying a GPU that actually supports linux? If you buy a proprietary product with no actual linux support, then why are you complaining to the unpaid volunteer to fix it, and not the multi-billion dollar company you just made several hundred dollars richer?

CUDA is primarily developed for Linux. You’re showing me that you totally misunderstand the problem by assuming Nvidia doesn’t build these GPUs for Linux. There is a reason that Nvidia gpus + Linux servers top the top 500 supercomputer list. It is because they’re built to work together:

Not defending the author, but aren't you totally misunderstanding the fact that Nvidia providing excellent CUDA support is irrelevant to this conversation? The fact is Nvidia has a long history of providing the bare minimum to Linux desktop users, even on X11.

Hell, I can't even fix the screen-tearing or get Optimus to work with Nvidia's proprietary drivers with X11 on my GTX 1050 Ti Max-Q laptop. It may be 'usable' in a sense that it doesn't crash, but the number of graphical glitches that I run into every single day (literally opening my laptop requires me to refresh every window) that I never run into with Intel or AMD kind of proves to me how much Nvidia cares about desktop usage.

Drew Devault might be a jerk (not my words) and have a lot of fallacies in his arguments, but that doesn't mean you should be doing the same thing.

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#630

Post by bjourne »

CountSessine wrote: post #577
gnulinux wrote: post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why does this distinction matter? Gnome on X works perfectly fine, Gnome on Wayland does not. Why does it matter it to state that Wayland is a protocol, not the implementation?

That's funny, because for me, it's exactly the opposite. I use Gnome on Wayland/Mutter and it works great - I've never had a linux desktop that had such great UI rendering. Gnome on X doesn't work and is buggy - it's riddled with graphical glitches that other platforms (even smartphones and tablets) don't suffer from. How can that be considered to "work"? But my requirements are different from yours.

> it's riddled with graphical glitches that other platforms (even smartphones and tablets) don't suffer from. How can that be considered to "work"?

If you've been shooting yourself in the foot all your life, eventually you'll stop noticing that your foot is bleeding.

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