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I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

drewdevault.com

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Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#101

Post by cfcosta »

johnisgood wrote: post #29
wayneftw wrote: post #9

> Maybe Wayland doesn’t work for your precious use-case. > Wayland works for almost everyone... Oh good. Tell me how to get XFCE running with Wayland then? I'm not a user of X11 or Wayland, not really. I just picked a DE that I liked. I guess my choice puts me firmly in the anti-Wayland camp though since I won't be running it anytime soon.

Not sure why you are getting down-voted. I use a window manager that has no Wayland support, so I am not switching anytime soon either. Perhaps I will when and if it ever gets Wayland support, but for now, everything works on my end with Arch Linux. I also have "~/.xinitrc", "~/.Xdefaults", and I use "startx" to start my window manager. I have absolutely no clue how to have the equivalent of those in Wayland, includi…

Depends on what you plan on use when you do make a switch. In general, X applications will keep using Xdefaults because they run on XWayland, and the window manager will handle input configuration, displays, wallpaper and so on.

There are some ad-hoc implementations for doing what you want iirc, but it really is more "integrated" than what you are used for.

I have to test, have not done that in quite a while, but I think that you can just call let's say "sway" on the CLI and it will start wayland directly.

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#102

Post by dleslie »

BoysenberryPi wrote: post #31

I have no beef with Wayland specifically and I agree that if you are harassing maintainers of any project you're probably an asshole. However, >Maybe Wayland doesn’t work for your precious use-case. More likely, it does work, and you swallowed some propaganda based on an assumption which might have been correct 7 years ago. I'm a game developer. None of the software I use works reliably or at all on Wayland. None of…

Hell, Emacs doesn't work in Wayland.

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#103

Post by craftinator »

kuschku wrote: post #72
phone8675309 wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Under X11, you are basically running every application with root, always. This is not even remotely true. You are able to snoop on events that use the X server - typically programs run as your user or programs that you have chosen to forward to your X server. You are correct that the X server gets all events from all clients and therefore can log keys.

> This is not even remotely true. You are able to snoop on events that use the X server - typically programs run as your user or programs that you have chosen to forward to your X server. Such as your screen locker, your terminal with a sudo prompt in it, or your graphical Apt client?

Well, using the typical argument promoting Wayland, just don't use screen locker, gui terminal, or gui apt, and you'll be fine!

That being said, I've been using Wayland for 2 years, and it's mostly just worked, and worked better than Xorg for many things. Unfortunately I often have to switch back to X for specific applications, but luckily Ubuntu has made that fairly painless. There are pros and cons; the arguments for and against Wayland don't really add much to the conversation, which is sort of an odd state to be in.

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#104

Post by vaylian »

MartijnBraam wrote: post #2

I'm not even a wayland developer and I get annoyed by all the posts about wayland not working, I've been running it for years and it Just Works(tm) for me aside from the occasional gotcha.

As someone who has no experience with Wayland: What are the telltale signs that a problem is related to Wayland and not the application itself?

I've gotten curious. I want to try Wayland in the near future. But it would be good to have an idea of what kind of issues I might encounter, so that I can change back to X11 in an emergency.

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#105

Post by dleslie »

creata wrote: post #50
BoysenberryPi wrote: post #31

I have no beef with Wayland specifically and I agree that if you are harassing maintainers of any project you're probably an asshole. However, >Maybe Wayland doesn’t work for your precious use-case. More likely, it does work, and you swallowed some propaganda based on an assumption which might have been correct 7 years ago. I'm a game developer. None of the software I use works reliably or at all on Wayland. None of…

If it's not too much trouble, can you list the software you use which doesn't work on Wayland?

Emacs

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#106

Post by BoysenberryPi »

creata wrote: post #50
BoysenberryPi wrote: post #31

I have no beef with Wayland specifically and I agree that if you are harassing maintainers of any project you're probably an asshole. However, >Maybe Wayland doesn’t work for your precious use-case. More likely, it does work, and you swallowed some propaganda based on an assumption which might have been correct 7 years ago. I'm a game developer. None of the software I use works reliably or at all on Wayland. None of…

If it's not too much trouble, can you list the software you use which doesn't work on Wayland?

No problem, the biggest ones I tried were Godot, Krita, and Steam. Godot does not run on Wayland although support seems to be planned somewhere down the pipeline. Krita "runs" on Wayland but a lot of the features do not work nor does pen support last time I checked. Steam just doesn't work.

Edit: A commenter on this thread mentioned Emacs. I have not tried that as I have recently switched to Emacs but if that is true then that would also be a big one for me.

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#108

Post by freeone3000 »

davidcollantes wrote: post #99

I agree with mostly everything Drew wrote, yet these two things are antagonistic to the main sentiment of the post, in my opinion (English isn’t my mother tongue, and I might have gotten things wrong): > […] just to maintain that broken pile of shit. > […] If you do know what you’re doing, though, you’ll soon realize you want nothing to do with that shitty codebase. If it is a "broken pile of shit," and a "shitty cod…

He's referring to X11 with that.

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#109

Post by bluefox »

arghwhat wrote: post #34
AnIdiotOnTheNet wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which of course means that it must be good enough for everyone, because it works for you.

The funny thing about your funny remark is that the inverse is used as primary anti-wayland argument. Oh no, a single thing doesn't work yet, the entire system must be fundamentally broke for everyone . Definitely not just a bug or feature someone hasn't gotten to yet, no no. If anyone wants to keep using X, they're free to step up and maintain it. So far no one has been willing.

I don't understand the point about maintenance. Is Xorg maintained? If so, are the current maintainers handcuffed to it? I assume they aren't, so what's the problem? If Xorg is not maintained, again, what's the problem? Software is known to outlive its creators and maintainers. If there's a need, it will eventually get new maintainers. Software is not magic.

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#110

Post by kuschku »

perryizgr8 wrote: post #82
kuschku wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wayland improves: - Multi-Monitor support (especially with multiple different resolutions) - HiDPI support (even if some of your programs haven’t been updated for that yet) Now why does wayland break xclip and vnc? Because "every program is a keylogger by default and can see any event, look at the contents of any window" is a major security issue, especially as it means the entire security model of screen lockers or…

> Now why does wayland break xclip and vnc? Does it matter why? If I use VNC to do my work, it is absolutely impossible for me to switch to wayland, no matter how justified the reasons are.

It does, because it explains why this change has to be done by VNC client/server devs, and can’t be done in the wayland protocol or compositor.

If a new replacement would have the exact same set of supported use cases as the original, it wouldn’t be useful. The point of wayland is that it enables some new use cases, while restricting some older ones.

Wayland is still powerful enough to implement VNC (weston supports RDP in both directions) or xclip (KDE’s klipper works just fine under wayland). It just requires effort from third parties.

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