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I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

drewdevault.com

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Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#411

Post by pmlnr »

boudin wrote: post #237
forgotmypw17 wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

well yeah, i just got used to it working a certain way, now i gotta figure it out again. fucking nerds acting like it,s no big deal when shit i use every day is all changed up. do you have any idea how much cognitive load that is for the average user to figure out new ui? and usually for no good reason, just to change shit up so someone can get credit for a project. don,t blame the users for software being shit. it,s…

The reverse is also true. Don't blame people maintaining software for changing your routine. You make a lot of assumptions there but the reality is often much more nuanced. Everything changes, all the time, that's a rule that is true for absolutely everything in life.

> Don't blame people maintaining software for changing your routine.

IMO that depends if the software is paid for or not. If I regularly pay for a software I can have demands.

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#412

Post by turminal »

pmlnr wrote: post #377
robert_foss wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

NVidia is broken, not Wayland. They refuse to implement the same APIs as everyone other driver does. Wayland is 10 years old, and extremely stable. If it isn't working properly it's either your driver vendor or your desktop environment that is to blame.

... ... Really? "Us, open source devs demans nvidia to alter their ways". And you wonder why people are disappointed in wayland?

Perhaps they should be disappointed in nvidia? Or at least, think twice before buying from them? I don't think anyone here demands anything from nvidia. It's not wayland devs that feel entitled to better treatment by nvidia. It's nvidia users feeling entitled to support in wayland compositors.

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#413

Post by foldr »

betterunix2 wrote: post #395
foldr wrote: post #244

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>but they shouldn't expect a life free of complaints. This seems to be the dominant culture, but it's actually pretty toxic that people feel entitled to whine about software created by people who owe them absolutely nothing. Constructive feedback is useful, and appropriate if the creator indicates that they want it. Whining and ranting is a waste of energy. It makes people feel bad and leads to no beneficial change.…

"people who owe them absolutely nothing" What makes you think people owe nothing to each other in the open source ecosystem? I maintain a package for Fedora, I have submitted a few patches to the Linux Kernel, and I regularly report bugs. Do the Wayland developers not benefit from any of the above? Even my mother, who is not very technical, has managed to identify bugs here and there which I report on her behalf. Do…

Giving a project feedback does not impose any obligation on the maintainers of that project to help you – even if they find the feedback useful. In general, it's rude (and ineffective) to try to unilaterally impose non-trivial obligations on people without getting their prior agreement.

Actual contributions are another matter. If you contribute to a project, then sure, you should get a say proportional to the size of your contribution. And I wonder how many of the people who complain about Wayland have made sizeable contributions?

An important point here is that it's up to the maintainers to evaluate the value of your contributions from their point of view. If you don't respect this, you're again trying to impose obligations unilaterally. That is, offering help that may not really have been wanted in the first place and then expecting something in return.

>If the Wayland developers do not want to hear those complaints, they should not be involved in developing software that millions of people depend on, nor should they have tried to replace software that millions of people depend on.

This seems way off base to me. I hope this attitude is not pervasive because it seems like it's a huge discouragement to people who want to write useful software. (If you succeed to any degree, millions of people are automatically entitled to shout at you whenever they experience some inconvenience.)

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#414

Post by R0b0t1 »

rbanffy wrote: post #375
corty wrote: post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is actually one of the big, unfixable, conceptual problems of Wayland that all the effort is duplicated in each compositor. The Wayland concept pushes out most of the work to the DEs. That of course will result in tons of predictable inconsistency, incompatibility, bugs, delays, consolidations and general pain. Wayland devs are then generally in the lazy "worksforme, use sway (or whatever)" position while the user…

> It is actually one of the big, unfixable, conceptual problems of Wayland Why not have a shared implementation?

Because then you end up with something like X11, which we already have.

The codebase could be re-engineered, sure, but a lot of people championing Wayland tend to see this duplication of effort as good for some reason, and at least last I engaged with them did not like the idea of a "new X11."

Personally I think something like that is an inevitability.

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#415

Post by NoodleIncident »

cturner wrote: post #276
cat199 wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In my admittedly somewhat distanced opinion, Wayland's biggest mistakes were not launching with a coherent strategy for replicating functionality like screen sharing, screenshots, and to a lesser extent remote desktop/applications. They just punted and said "that's a compositor problem!" as though that was supposed to make it ok. People have thus harbored some inherent resentment ever since. agree 1000% - really do…

Remote windowing is a legacy of the era when universities ran dozens of dumb terminals from a server. It would be bizarre to pursue that in an era of hardware-accelerated graphics. If the Wayland design was weighed down by such things, it could never hope to be progress.

Universities still do that. It's not that bizarre of a use case

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#416

Post by t0astbread »

tych0 wrote: post #54

People are dicks to maintainers of X11-based software too. I think people are just dicks. It's one of the reasons I love stale closing bots. I don't have to pay attention to people who are dicks. I can just unsubscribe from their issues and let a bot handle it.

Okay but why not close angry issues immediately with a cookie-cutter response and avoid stale closing bots? Stale closing bots also have the tendency to close real issues just because nothing has changed regarding the issue in a while.

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#417

Post by oooooooooooow »

Lammy wrote: post #303
boudin wrote: post #237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The reverse is also true. Don't blame people maintaining software for changing your routine. You make a lot of assumptions there but the reality is often much more nuanced. Everything changes, all the time, that's a rule that is true for absolutely everything in life.

> Don't blame people maintaining software for changing your routine. In this case it's people maintaining software that I don't use telling me I'm problematic for not switching to their stack, away from existing software that works perfectly fine and is also actively maintained by people who don't call me a flat-earther. Easy choice.

Hey that's a bit dishonest. The guy is not calling you a problematic flat-earther if you're simply not using his product. He would be if you were writing angry reddit comments about how Wayland sucks because you heard it sucks, I guess. Are you?

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#418

Post by tlamponi »

pmlnr wrote: post #377
robert_foss wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

NVidia is broken, not Wayland. They refuse to implement the same APIs as everyone other driver does. Wayland is 10 years old, and extremely stable. If it isn't working properly it's either your driver vendor or your desktop environment that is to blame.

... ... Really? "Us, open source devs demans nvidia to alter their ways". And you wonder why people are disappointed in wayland?

The commonly heard demand is to start working on a common ground, like AMD and Intel seems to be able just fine.

What's your proposal? Requiring paid and free-time spending software developer to bent backward and maintain some complex parallel implementation for EGL-Streams just because NVIDIA always want to be a special snowflake? Even seemingly putting in extra effort to be a PITA for all involved and produce as much extra work as just possible to support it.

With that in mind really nobody can wonder why NVIDIA market share is continuously getting smaller in Linux systems https://boilingsteam.com/amd-vs-nvidia-are-linux-gamers-swit...

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#419

Post by leephillips »

zamadatix wrote: post #403
leephillips wrote: post #367

I use dwm and X11. I don’t use a “desktop” and never will. I only use one monitor, and don’t care about screen sharing. X11 works fine for me in almost all respects—the exception is some applications drawing some of their text too small on my high-resolution screen. Is there any reason for me to know about Wayland?

Wayland gives a better way for those apps to draw on high resolution displays appropriately and at worst case if they don't know about Wayland they draw all the same as now via XWayland anyways. Ddevault actually created sway which is a Wayland i3 clone so his workflow probably wasn't all that different from yours on dwm.

OK. I may want to try it, in that case. Do you know if there is a good guide somewhere to how to do this? The idea seems a bit scary, as X11 is embedded pretty deeply into the system.

Re: I'm tired of this anti-Wayland horseshit

#420

Post by arghwhat »

bluefox wrote: post #265
kevincox wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

X is barely maintained anymore. To a large extent all of the X developers are working on Wayland now. A lot of people have the impression that Wayland is some outside competitor to X but the truth is that the vast majority of the people who started Wayland are long-time X developers who know its flaws inside and out.

Sure, I can understand people working on software X for a long time getting fed up with it and start working on software W. I can also understand that these people have strong opinions on why W is so much better. The only trouble is that others, who are possibly not developers of window systems, may not care, or may find that it breaks their software, or may not want to write software that depends on W and doesn't wo…

There are not enough developers to even create a new release or review contributor patches.

The Wayland community contributes a fair share due to xwayland, and we get stuck on this quite often.

And yeah, it'll need fixes. over time. It's big, complex, and interacts with device drivers that are very much in flux.

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