Epic, Spotify, and Tinder form advocacy group to push for app store changes • Hacker News Board

Re: Epic, Spotify, and Tinder form advocacy group to push for app store changes

#371

Post by im3w1l » Thu, Sep 24, 2020, 5:12 PM UTC

dleslie wrote: post #279

im3w1l wrote: post #252

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And if you want to install whichever apps you want, AND not be spied on by your OS, there are basically no options. Linageos is a possibility, but with the play services situation, running any mainstream app without phoning home to google is if not impossible, extremely difficult and filled with footguns. Pine and Librem are exciting emerging possibilities but they have only been available for a very short time so it…

PinePhone is available to order right now; and it's cheap as hell.

From what I heard there are some wrinkles to iron out before it's ready for the mass market, but I must admit I have not looked into it closely yet.

Re: Epic, Spotify, and Tinder form advocacy group to push for app store changes

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Post by egypturnash » Thu, Sep 24, 2020, 5:14 PM UTC

alextheparrot wrote: post #298

echelon wrote: post #229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The web and web downloads were 100% of the distribution channel. Now you can't distribute binaries without oversight and taxation. Also, web browsers on mobile are much less capable than on desktop.

This is the same as game consoles, so it has been the case for a long time. Consumers seem completely fine with relaxing that constraint if everything else “Just works”.

Once you are no longer twelve, life's too fucking short to spend forever configuring your new graphics card unless you have explicitly decided that being A Gamer is your hobby.

Re: Epic, Spotify, and Tinder form advocacy group to push for app store changes

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Post by pb7 » Thu, Sep 24, 2020, 5:14 PM UTC

jpambrun wrote: post #363

pb7 wrote: post #333

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, it does mean that you have to use them (if you already do). If you're a user of Spotify or Tinder and they pull out of the App Store, you now have to follow whatever arbitrary consumer-hostile decisions that will make them the most money since there's no one to tell them otherwise. I like that they have to follow the strict rules in the App Store because I know they want that sweet sweet App Store money and won'…

Forcing you to use 3rd party store for few apps is somehow worst than forcing everyone to use the Apple store for all apps? This discussion is moot. Apple only has to lower it's cut to cost + a reasonable markup instead of abusing it's position to charge 30%. Then everybody can be happy.

It's not going to be a few apps and they might not even be a few stores. It's going to be a bunch of stores with varying rules and conditions and bars for quality and selection of apps. I'm not interested in that because I don't trust other companies to do the right thing. If you're interested in that, you can use Android. No one is forcing you to use iOS.

Also, there is no reason to believe any percentage is too high or too low. 30% is what Apple has charged since day 1 when it had no position whatsoever. You will need to explain exactly at which point in time 30% became problematic.

Re: Epic, Spotify, and Tinder form advocacy group to push for app store changes

#374

Post by dang » Thu, Sep 24, 2020, 5:15 PM UTC

danShumway wrote: post #11

Can we just link directly to the advocacy group's page ( https://appfairness.org/ )? I'm not certain the article is adding anything. ---- I'm generally supportive of at least some of Epic's arguments towards Apple, and I do believe that Apple (and multiple other FAANG companies) are engaged in anti-competitive behavior that's currently hurting the market. But a lot of the arguments I'm reading on the App Fairness sit…

Ok, we've changed the URL from https://www.wsj.com/articles/fortnite-maker-spotify-form-adv....

Re: Epic, Spotify, and Tinder form advocacy group to push for app store changes

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Post by lotsofpulp » Thu, Sep 24, 2020, 5:15 PM UTC

joekim wrote: post #369

dgellow wrote: post #296

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What I learned from past experiences is to never use analogies. They are almost always a source of distraction, people start to argue about the analogy itself instead of the topic at hand, which is almost always completely counter productive. Also it often only makes sense in the mind of the author...

> What I learned from past experiences is to never use analogies. They are almost always a source of distraction, people start to argue about the analogy itself instead of the topic at hand, which is almost always completely counter productive. As other's have mentioned, perhaps this is only for literal minded thinkers. In Pre-suasion by Robert Cialdini metaphors are identified as the most effective persuasion device…

That's exactly the problem with analogies. It fools people by falsely parading as a valid argument.

Edit: The use of a life insurance salesman as an example is hilariously appropriate given the scam that whole life insurance is and how many people are fooled into buying it.

Re: Epic, Spotify, and Tinder form advocacy group to push for app store changes

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Post by curiousllama » Thu, Sep 24, 2020, 5:16 PM UTC

lotsofpulp wrote: post #337

curiousllama wrote: post #317

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Analogies can be powerful if told well. It just so happens that they're hard to tell well. Source: Cheerios

What does it mean for an analogy to be powerful? I typically see analogies used to support an argument, which analogies don't do. Hence you see the conversation break down into whether or not the analogy is accurate or not. Analogies illustrate a concept. They don't establish reasoning or causation or proof.

> Analogies illustrate a concept

Effectively illustrating the right concept is, in my opinion, the hardest part of communication. Analogies are powerful because they're intuitive illustrations.

> I typically see analogies used to support an argument, which analogies don't do

Yes and no. Analogies communicate concepts, and concepts support arguments. Analogies neither support arguments nor fail to support arguments; the concepts they communicate do that.

They're hard to use because they can be distracting: if you choose the wrong analogy, you may illustrate an irrelevant concept, rather than the one you mean to. That's why people argue: you mean to illustrate [concept A], but what pops into the receiver's mind is [concept A] AND [concept B]. So now you're not on the same page about what was just said.

Look at the cheerios example: how may related-but-not-the-same examples have popped up in the comments? It's a bad analogy: it needs to be much more narrow and specific.

Re: Epic, Spotify, and Tinder form advocacy group to push for app store changes

#377

Post by echelon » Thu, Sep 24, 2020, 5:16 PM UTC

plandis wrote: post #342

echelon wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your perspective makes me sad. I'm honestly depressed because people rush to defend bad behavior of their favorite monopoly. Like, physically holding back tears. Serious. What is wrong with us? Our computers and technology have been locked down by anti-competitive juggernauts. Our legislators have written laws that cede more of our liberties and privacy. This modern internet sucks so much and I want to go back to whe…

Apple doesn’t even have 50% of the smartphone market. It sounds like you’re an App developer so perhaps it would be more honest to just explicitly state that you want to make more money rather than claim youre on the verge of tears?

> Apple doesn’t even have 50% of the smartphone market.

It looks like they command between 33% and 46% of sales in the US per quarter. [1]

That's a lot of people. Many of them use their iPhone as their only computer.

> It sounds like you’re an App developer so perhaps it would be more honest to just explicitly state that you want to make more money

I want freedom back.

I have projects that make zero money that I want to run. I also don't want to have to have an Apple SDK license or write it in their chosen technology or be required to follow their stringent UI guidelines because my audience is niche and doesn't care about that. My time on this earth is too limited to jump through more hoops.

I also don't want to have my app deleted because I'm protesting them.

Dealing with Apple is like living under an authoritarian regime. We don't have any choice but to deal with them because of the power they wield.

[1] https://www.statista.com/statistics/620805/smartphone-sales-...

Re: Epic, Spotify, and Tinder form advocacy group to push for app store changes

#378

Post by tombert » Thu, Sep 24, 2020, 5:16 PM UTC

clansimus wrote: post #329

nicetryguy wrote: post #75

I'm surprised at all of the negativity here. The changes proposed would be great for developers, even if (most) of the companies involved are shady, their reasons are selfish, and the obvious "astroturfiness" of the website is laughably dissonant and reeks like a dirty think tank that hasn't been cleaned in months. Apple has no qualms about absolutely screwing developers historically. I'm happy to see some pushback.

Because "great for developers" just shouldn't matter. It should be about what the consumers want.

A worse time for developers means worse apps, worse apps means less-happy consumers. They aren't mutually exclusive.

Re: Epic, Spotify, and Tinder form advocacy group to push for app store changes

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Post by AlphaSite » Thu, Sep 24, 2020, 5:17 PM UTC

Apocryphon wrote: post #234

ilikehurdles wrote: post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Epic and Spotify.

Sure, but what about the other names on the list? People are selectively focusing on only the major companies and neglecting that others have legitimate grievances.

This article is about them, it makes sense that would be the focus.

Re: Epic, Spotify, and Tinder form advocacy group to push for app store changes

#380

Post by dang » Thu, Sep 24, 2020, 5:17 PM UTC

temp667 wrote: post #219

echelon wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your perspective makes me sad. I'm honestly depressed because people rush to defend bad behavior of their favorite monopoly. Like, physically holding back tears. Serious. What is wrong with us? Our computers and technology have been locked down by anti-competitive juggernauts. Our legislators have written laws that cede more of our liberties and privacy. This modern internet sucks so much and I want to go back to whe…

The "bad behavior"? Are you joking. You realize people pay apple EXTRA because they value their product? Their product holds its value far LONGER on the secondary market because it is maintained so well? You can get unlocked android phones and install whatever you want. But the reality for our parents / grandparents etc is that the folks who want to have root on their device want to scam them, auto bill them with non…

Would you please not post in the flamewar style to HN? Your comments in this thread are standing out as particularly flamebaity. We're trying to avoid that here.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html