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Epic, Spotify, and Tinder form advocacy group to push for app store changes

appfairness.org

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Re: Epic, Spotify, and Tinder form advocacy group to push for app store changes

#291

Post by rblatz »

0xDEEPFAC wrote: post #148
rblatz wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So I’m not sure what point you are arguing but it’s either that consumers are stupid and don’t really want a secure phone and walled garden and would want to take that choice away from customers by law. Or that Apple needs to charge less for access to the App Store while also spending more money (to stop the inhuman auto replies and actions) Both are terrible arguments

Apple has more than enough money to both protect users and actually help developers - it doesn't need to squeeze them. For example, why isn't it a one-time fee for the initial scan? Why must they take a share of every purchase. Without competition (like gasp competing app stores) Apple will continue to be negligent to devs and ban applications that compete with their services. For example, the Apple watch without cel…

You start off with Apple has enough money and supposing that you know better how to run a successful App Store than the company with the most successful App Store. Maybe the App Store is so successful because it’s customers are the people that own the phone not the devs. I know I absolutely don’t want competing app stores, that ends with fragmentation and having to deal with a pile of installed app stores to download a couple of apps. It also means that apps will go to the least restrictive stores that let them get away with the shadiest anti-consumer practices.

I’ve not run into the Spotify issue. I don’t listen to music from my watch, but I agree that is annoying. The alternative sounds so much worse and why I stay away from Android.

Re: Epic, Spotify, and Tinder form advocacy group to push for app store changes

#292

Post by tmotwu »

temp667 wrote: post #257
tmotwu wrote: post #225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not exactly sure if it's astroturfing, but there's definitely been a lot of non-devs commenting on this issue. You can see this when they go off on some security tangent while the App Store is in fact host to thousands of malware in disguise. They trust that Apple is manually reviewing each and every App for security holes, that's why the App Store exists in the first place and totally why there's a 30% toll. I'm sta…

"illusion"? It's relative security. On the iphone, if I buy a used phone and a scammer has popped a cheapo battery in to show no battery life slow down - apple alerts me (also unpopular on HN BTW). If I buy an android phone from most carriers, their "security" involved pre-loading it with unremovable adware and tracking apps. This is more secure - are you serious? The google play store has less malware? The permissio…

In the meantime, nothing stops a scammer from selling you a jailbroken device.

App permissioning has nothing to do with the App Store and it's hostile policies towards developers. You can set the same permissioning rules on rival devices as well.

The false narrative that the App Store exists to protect you needs to be dispelled forever. The trust consumers have to install any App in the App Store is far more terrifying.

Re: Epic, Spotify, and Tinder form advocacy group to push for app store changes

#293

Post by bad_user »

echelon wrote: post #251
temp667 wrote: post #219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The "bad behavior"? Are you joking. You realize people pay apple EXTRA because they value their product? Their product holds its value far LONGER on the secondary market because it is maintained so well? You can get unlocked android phones and install whatever you want. But the reality for our parents / grandparents etc is that the folks who want to have root on their device want to scam them, auto bill them with non…

> Go use another phone if you don't like it. Half of my audience is on your favorite device. I didn't have to pay for them before Apple sunk their claws in. Even if there wasn't a tax, the lack of freedom is what really gets me. Apple built itself atop open source. They leveraged it to gain control over 40% of the CPUs used by consumers. Now we can't run code for these people. I applaud their privacy stance. But free…

> But freedom to run software is a separate issue.

It isn't, because it's tied to security.

I don't understand why a company, like Apple, shouldn't be allowed to create locked-down devices.

This practice isn't new either. Locked down game consoles have existed since the dawn of computing. What makes this situation special? Don't like it, then don't buy it.

Speaking of the situation at hand, Epic did in fact distribute Fortnite outside of Google Play. Until they eventually caved, because distribution via Google Play is more lucrative.

This isn't about your freedom, they couldn't care less. This is about them making Apple succumb to their demands, while still using the App Store as a distribution channel.

And yes, it matters what "champions" are fighting for your "freedoms". When the likes of Epic are your champion, maybe you're on the wrong side of it.

Re: Epic, Spotify, and Tinder form advocacy group to push for app store changes

#294

Post by starbugs »

nemothekid wrote: post #273
echelon wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your perspective makes me sad. I'm honestly depressed because people rush to defend bad behavior of their favorite monopoly. Like, physically holding back tears. Serious. What is wrong with us? Our computers and technology have been locked down by anti-competitive juggernauts. Our legislators have written laws that cede more of our liberties and privacy. This modern internet sucks so much and I want to go back to whe…

> I'm honestly depressed because people rush to defend bad behavior of their favorite monopoly. While techies lived in their utopia, the rest of us without the ability to compile from source were tricked into downloading spyware, profiled, and scammed from dubious "developers". These problems were known, but nothing was done about them in the name of "developer freedom". A company comes along and offers the vast majo…

Is a happy delusion preferable to a miserable reality?

The App Store has become a virtual Truman Show. As long as you don't look beyond its simulated reality, it's a happy place.

Developers have the perspective and ability to look behind the curtains. And what they find there is a truly miserable reality of unfair practices, deceptions, and even censorship.

The philosophical answer to the question above has long been given. In the end, a miserable reality is always preferable to a happy delusion. And it's only a matter of time until "ordinary" users will discover that harsh truth themselves.

Being a bit more unprotected is a small price in exchange to not losing your freedom.

Re: Epic, Spotify, and Tinder form advocacy group to push for app store changes

#295

Post by devwastaken »

temp667 wrote: post #97

Haha - this illustrates WHY the app store is so popular. You've got Match.com (owns tinder). Repeat FTC offender (most scammmers never get the FTC slap on the wrist). "Match Group also allegedly makes it too difficult to cancel a subscription through “confusing and cumbersome cancellation practices.” The FTC claims users must click through two pages of survey questions and cites a 2015 internal presentation that note…

Monopalies become large enough that their existence threatens capitalism itself by controlling the free market through Ill means. Markets are comprised of people, business, and money. when a market is large enough People have a right to conduct their business unduly infringed by it's creator or controller. Anything else is a fascist market that is entirely against capitalism, and therefore should not exist in a free world.

You may like your padded walls and taking authority, but the market does not belong to you. It belongs to the opportunity of business.

Re: Epic, Spotify, and Tinder form advocacy group to push for app store changes

#296

Post by dgellow »

danShumway wrote: post #11

Can we just link directly to the advocacy group's page ( https://appfairness.org/ )? I'm not certain the article is adding anything. ---- I'm generally supportive of at least some of Epic's arguments towards Apple, and I do believe that Apple (and multiple other FAANG companies) are engaged in anti-competitive behavior that's currently hurting the market. But a lot of the arguments I'm reading on the App Fairness sit…

What I learned from past experiences is to never use analogies. They are almost always a source of distraction, people start to argue about the analogy itself instead of the topic at hand, which is almost always completely counter productive.

Also it often only makes sense in the mind of the author...

Re: Epic, Spotify, and Tinder form advocacy group to push for app store changes

#297

Post by zepto »

realusername wrote: post #243
zepto wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In that case every single retail store has a monopoly on the products they sell. This is a meaningless definition of monopoly.

Except in the retail world, there's competition between stores. Competition is non-existent in the mobile world, there's only two companies and both have the exact same fees and very similar policies.

So we need more entrants.

Why doesn’t this coalition of multi-billion dollar corporations invest in creating an Android based alternative with different policies?

That would add choice to the market rather than taking it away.

They can clearly afford to do so, but it seems like they just don’t feel the need to make the investment.

Re: Epic, Spotify, and Tinder form advocacy group to push for app store changes

#298

Post by alextheparrot »

echelon wrote: post #229
croissants wrote: post #216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Genuine question, can you expand on what you mean by this: > Before they stood up the walls, I could reach all the people I wanted for free. What are you referring to? Blogging, social networks, forums, etc.?

The web and web downloads were 100% of the distribution channel. Now you can't distribute binaries without oversight and taxation. Also, web browsers on mobile are much less capable than on desktop.

This is the same as game consoles, so it has been the case for a long time. Consumers seem completely fine with relaxing that constraint if everything else “Just works”.

Re: Epic, Spotify, and Tinder form advocacy group to push for app store changes

#299

Post by bzb5 »

exBarrelSpoiler wrote: post #262
bzb5 wrote: post #228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Like, physically holding back tears. Serious. Time to step away from the computer, miss. Regarding the rest of your comment: sorry to say this but the internet is freer now than 10 years ago. More people are online talking and collaborating with each other in new and more interesting ways. There’s more and better access to culture more than there’s ever been.

You just contradicted yourself https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24569102

I said freer, not completely free.

And by free I mean the amount of people who currently use for example WhatsApp, which allows us to freely communicate with others. Even my mother is using it! Ten years ago she hadn’t touched any kind of tech.

Re: Epic, Spotify, and Tinder form advocacy group to push for app store changes

#300

Post by bad_user »

AlexandrB wrote: post #287
acituan wrote: post #244

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Epic and Spotify are pushing their own walled gardens, they just want to do it with a bigger profit margin. There is absolutely no problem with that because it cures the one and only walled garden problem. If they implement a subpar walled garden, it will be up to the users to exercise choice on using them, which they currently can't. This is the core of the opponent processes of markets. It is irrelevant to demand…

> If they implement a subpar walled garden, it will be up to the users to exercise choice on using them, which they currently can't. Epic games store is a very subpar walled garden. It's the only way to access several games that are either in exclusivity agreements with Epic or were purchased by Epic outright (RIP Rocket League). Spotify is (IMHO) a subpar walled garden. They recently purchased exclusivity for Joe Ro…

I very much agree, but...

> They recently purchased exclusivity for Joe Rogan, if you want to listen to him in the future you have to use Spotify.

Joe Rogan's podcast is anti-science crap. That it moved to a walled garden, restricting access to it, I find that as being a gift to the world.

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