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Epic, Spotify, and Tinder form advocacy group to push for app store changes

appfairness.org

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Re: Epic, Spotify, and Tinder form advocacy group to push for app store changes

#211

Post by Kalium »

speedgoose wrote: post #16
doublerabbit wrote: post #2

"The Coalition for App Fairness", I cannot not laugh. On the stage you have: Epic - Trying to be the next Valve/Steam. Happy to rip off their customers via in-game transactions. Spotify - Who rip off artists by either failing or paying very little in royalties. Tinder - Sells sex. None of these companies have any care for the actual developer; who are the folk trying to make a living from their creations.

Tinder sells rejections and disappointments too.

Tinder doesn't sell sex. It sells access to a Skinner box with intermittent positive reinforcement and frequent negative reinforcement where the reward is human connection.

Way, way more psychologically toxic.

Re: Epic, Spotify, and Tinder form advocacy group to push for app store changes

#212

Post by ajconway »

karpierz wrote: post #91
ajconway wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are all sorts of regulations in other fields, some of them serve public interest (as all of them should). Forcing a very powerful company into making their platform more open might be OK.

It might be, but you can make same argument about any curated platform. I also don't think this serves the public interest. App developers have much less interest in maintaining the privacy of users and making it easy to cancel subscriptions, among other things.

This is a difficult issue because it involves restricting the freedom of a service provider to develop their product as they see fit. Ideally, the market itself should force companies to make things that are beneficial to the customers. Unfortunately, real customers can be manipulated, that is why there are regulations. I don't have a good answer to why there needs to be a regulation in this case, but it wouldn't be the first.

As I mentioned in another reply, both Apple and Google, despite not being monopolists, can arbitrarily restrict competition, because they have the power to refuse serving some apps. I would argue that it is dangerous, and corporations should not have that kind of power.

Re: Epic, Spotify, and Tinder form advocacy group to push for app store changes

#213

Post by sdenton4 »

AlexandrB wrote: post #124
AlexandrB wrote: post #86

From https://appfairness.org/our-vision/ > No app store owner should prohibit third parties from offering competing app stores on the app store owner’s platform, or discourage developers or consumers from using them. I don't disagree but does this mean Sony should allow, for example, Steam to be installed on the PS5? Or is the definition of "App Store" used here narrow and arbitrary?

From https://appfairness.org/issues/30-app-tax/ > For most purchases made within its App Store, Apple takes 30% of the purchase price. No other transaction fee — in any industry — comes close. This is a straight-up lie and Epic, being in the gaming industry, knows it. Steam takes the same 30% (unless you're huge) and is Epic's direct competitor on PC. Not to mention every other gaming platform[1]. [1] https://www.ign…

I think the the underlying game here is that epic wants to run its own app stores. It's not allowed to do that because every platform has followed Apple's model and mandated that theirs is the one and only app store on each platform.

Otherwise we end up with many app stores, which requires users to care about where they get candy crush... You can pay more or less at each store, and have different probabilities of picking up some terrible malware based on your decisions. On the flip side, we might see lots of apps using weird disallowed OS functionality in off-brand stores, leading to a second round of innovation in apps.

Realistically, it ends with many stores of varying quality and mark up. People brainwashed enough to pay the apple tax will probably continue paying the apple tax, for the most part. But the overall game changes substantially.

Re: Epic, Spotify, and Tinder form advocacy group to push for app store changes

#214

Post by joshstrange »

crazygringo wrote: post #159
temp667 wrote: post #97

Haha - this illustrates WHY the app store is so popular. You've got Match.com (owns tinder). Repeat FTC offender (most scammmers never get the FTC slap on the wrist). "Match Group also allegedly makes it too difficult to cancel a subscription through “confusing and cumbersome cancellation practices.” The FTC claims users must click through two pages of survey questions and cites a 2015 internal presentation that note…

> this illustrates WHY the app store is so popular No it doesn't. The app store is "popular" because Apple users don't have a choice. It's "popular" because they're forced to use it. I'm neither defending it or criticizing it... but let's not pretend like consumers are choosing the app store. Users in general are choosing Apple vs Android primarily for reasons that have nothing to do with an app store (i.e. hardware,…

> No it doesn't. The app store is "popular" because Apple users don't have a choice. It's "popular" because they're forced to use it.

I spend WAY more on apps in the App Store as well as subscriptions because I know I'm not going to get screwed and I can easily throw a few dollars to a company without having to check to make sure they aren't scummy. I can cancel my subscriptions extremely easily and I get to keep my access through the current paid period. I have used both Play and the App Store and I greatly prefer the App Store over the Play store, it, along with what I perceive as higher quality apps in the store, is absolutely a deciding factor in both my choice of iOS and my recommendation to friends/family.

Re: Epic, Spotify, and Tinder form advocacy group to push for app store changes

#215

Post by xlii »

ketzu wrote: post #110
xlii wrote: post #31

I just canceled Spotify membership I had for years for now. I don't have anything for Spotify or their fight with Apple. It makes sense. But on the other hand I refuse to help Epic in any initiative they take or to endorse companies that sides with them. Epic is in my eyes evil company and they done a lot of bad things in area I care about. I know that few of my friends do the same right now. It probably doesn't matt…

> Epic is in my eyes evil company and they done a lot of bad things in area I care about. Can you elaborate on that? It's hard to follow for me. Also: You don't give money to epic, you also think the goal of spotify in that case makes sense. But you are willing to hurt a goal that you think makes sense because someone you don't like also thinks that goal is worth fighting for? This seems unnecessary and a bad strateg…

Epic introduced the concept of exclusivity on the PC gaming scene. Earlier Steam (which arguably is monopoly) provided option to buy games but those games could be distributed from outside - and many games did so. Right now Epic locks some of the games in their EGS store. Few kickstarted games were "bought" by Epic into (and which I personally backed, but I have no access to unless I accept their conditions).

There is a lot to cover, if you're interested you could probably read a lot about people's game library being locked out due to some arbitrary reasons, cards details leaking out from EGS or people being charged twice and never refunded. Epic is a bully in a sheep's skin and they already proved that multiple times both in general and in direct way.

As for the goal - the goal makes sense for Spotify, not me. I wouldn't condemn them for trying yet I don't have a stake there. They don't do this so that I can pay less, they do this so that they can earn more. I don't see why I should put my mind on helping huge, wealthy company to obtain their goals. Same goes with Apple.

Re: Epic, Spotify, and Tinder form advocacy group to push for app store changes

#216

Post by croissants »

echelon wrote: post #167
temp667 wrote: post #97

Haha - this illustrates WHY the app store is so popular. You've got Match.com (owns tinder). Repeat FTC offender (most scammmers never get the FTC slap on the wrist). "Match Group also allegedly makes it too difficult to cancel a subscription through “confusing and cumbersome cancellation practices.” The FTC claims users must click through two pages of survey questions and cites a 2015 internal presentation that note…

Your perspective makes me sad. I'm honestly depressed because people rush to defend bad behavior of their favorite monopoly. Like, physically holding back tears. Serious. What is wrong with us? Our computers and technology have been locked down by anti-competitive juggernauts. Our legislators have written laws that cede more of our liberties and privacy. This modern internet sucks so much and I want to go back to whe…

Genuine question, can you expand on what you mean by this:

> Before they stood up the walls, I could reach all the people I wanted for free.

What are you referring to? Blogging, social networks, forums, etc.?

Re: Epic, Spotify, and Tinder form advocacy group to push for app store changes

#217

Post by realusername »

burlesona wrote: post #114
AlexandrB wrote: post #86

From https://appfairness.org/our-vision/ > No app store owner should prohibit third parties from offering competing app stores on the app store owner’s platform, or discourage developers or consumers from using them. I don't disagree but does this mean Sony should allow, for example, Steam to be installed on the PS5? Or is the definition of "App Store" used here narrow and arbitrary?

Yes, it means Sony has to add Steam to PS5 or else it is narrow and arbitrary. To me the iPhone is a console, end of story. If you like the console experience, it’s a great device. If you don’t, there are a million android and even alternative OS based phones out there which are more like a PC. If you want your phone to be a PC, you should do what most people around the world do and buy one of those. Instead we have…

> To me the iPhone is a console, end of story.

Not to consumers, it's replacing the computer market (especially in the developed world) and even Apple themselves market their products as computer replacements.

Re: Epic, Spotify, and Tinder form advocacy group to push for app store changes

#218

Post by ViViDboarder »

dividuum wrote: post #135
AlexandrB wrote: post #86

From https://appfairness.org/our-vision/ > No app store owner should prohibit third parties from offering competing app stores on the app store owner’s platform, or discourage developers or consumers from using them. I don't disagree but does this mean Sony should allow, for example, Steam to be installed on the PS5? Or is the definition of "App Store" used here narrow and arbitrary?

Also why limit to app stores. I want to sell my own cosmetics on their fortnite item store (jk, I don’t). Valve allows that for games like CSGO, if I understand that correctly. The whole „they build a platform, I want a part“ is weird.

Because app stores are acting as platforms as well as used to restrict third parties and improve first party products. Does Fortnite even have a platform for developing cosmetics and selling them? If not, then this argument misses the mark.

Consoles do provide salient examples though.

Re: Epic, Spotify, and Tinder form advocacy group to push for app store changes

#219

Post by temp667 »

echelon wrote: post #167
temp667 wrote: post #97

Haha - this illustrates WHY the app store is so popular. You've got Match.com (owns tinder). Repeat FTC offender (most scammmers never get the FTC slap on the wrist). "Match Group also allegedly makes it too difficult to cancel a subscription through “confusing and cumbersome cancellation practices.” The FTC claims users must click through two pages of survey questions and cites a 2015 internal presentation that note…

Your perspective makes me sad. I'm honestly depressed because people rush to defend bad behavior of their favorite monopoly. Like, physically holding back tears. Serious. What is wrong with us? Our computers and technology have been locked down by anti-competitive juggernauts. Our legislators have written laws that cede more of our liberties and privacy. This modern internet sucks so much and I want to go back to whe…

The "bad behavior"? Are you joking. You realize people pay apple EXTRA because they value their product? Their product holds its value far LONGER on the secondary market because it is maintained so well?

You can get unlocked android phones and install whatever you want. But the reality for our parents / grandparents etc is that the folks who want to have root on their device want to scam them, auto bill them with non-cancelable billing etc etc etc, market to them by tracking everything, turn all their data over to the govt.

We have basically one company who is trying to do a consumer / privacy first play. They went toe to toe with the DOJ to avoid unlocking the phone of a known shooter.

As more and more of our life lands on these devices, I think this is the smart play. Go use another phone if you don't like it.

Re: Epic, Spotify, and Tinder form advocacy group to push for app store changes

#220

Post by supercanuck »

zepto wrote: post #28
supercanuck wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They have a monopoly over the apps on the iOS.

In that case every single retail store has a monopoly on the products they sell. This is a meaningless definition of monopoly.

I don’t need to spend $1,000 to enter a store.

The issue is market power

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