Epic, Spotify, and Tinder form advocacy group to push for app store changes • Hacker News Board

Re: Epic, Spotify, and Tinder form advocacy group to push for app store changes

#341

Post by plandis » Thu, Sep 24, 2020, 4:59 PM UTC

echelon wrote: post #167

temp667 wrote: post #97

Haha - this illustrates WHY the app store is so popular. You've got Match.com (owns tinder). Repeat FTC offender (most scammmers never get the FTC slap on the wrist). "Match Group also allegedly makes it too difficult to cancel a subscription through “confusing and cumbersome cancellation practices.” The FTC claims users must click through two pages of survey questions and cites a 2015 internal presentation that note…

Your perspective makes me sad. I'm honestly depressed because people rush to defend bad behavior of their favorite monopoly. Like, physically holding back tears. Serious. What is wrong with us? Our computers and technology have been locked down by anti-competitive juggernauts. Our legislators have written laws that cede more of our liberties and privacy. This modern internet sucks so much and I want to go back to whe…

Apple doesn’t even have 50% of the smartphone market.

It sounds like you’re an App developer so perhaps it would be more honest to just explicitly state that you want to make more money rather than claim your on the verge of tears?

Re: Epic, Spotify, and Tinder form advocacy group to push for app store changes

#342

Post by plandis » Thu, Sep 24, 2020, 5:00 PM UTC

echelon wrote: post #167

temp667 wrote: post #97

Haha - this illustrates WHY the app store is so popular. You've got Match.com (owns tinder). Repeat FTC offender (most scammmers never get the FTC slap on the wrist). "Match Group also allegedly makes it too difficult to cancel a subscription through “confusing and cumbersome cancellation practices.” The FTC claims users must click through two pages of survey questions and cites a 2015 internal presentation that note…

Your perspective makes me sad. I'm honestly depressed because people rush to defend bad behavior of their favorite monopoly. Like, physically holding back tears. Serious. What is wrong with us? Our computers and technology have been locked down by anti-competitive juggernauts. Our legislators have written laws that cede more of our liberties and privacy. This modern internet sucks so much and I want to go back to whe…

Apple doesn’t even have 50% of the smartphone market.

It sounds like you’re an App developer so perhaps it would be more honest to just explicitly state that you want to make more money rather than claim youre on the verge of tears?

Re: Epic, Spotify, and Tinder form advocacy group to push for app store changes

#343

Post by actuator » Thu, Sep 24, 2020, 5:00 PM UTC

cwhiz wrote: post #331

actuator wrote: post #309

Why is Microsoft not in on this? Apple didn't allow Xbox Game Pass, while Samsung was proudly showcasing gaming on their phones on it. They seem to be the most hard done by unfair Apple practices. As far as I understand, they are not allowing the gaming service at all when it for all intents is nothing different from Netflix in principle. I certainly hope Microsoft joins in on this and not cut a side deal, it will hu…

Microsoft does not allow anyone else to sell digital Xbox games. This is the crux of all of this. Apple is doing what everyone else is doing. Google charges 30% and kicked Fortnite off the play store. Steam charges 15-30%. Microsoft and Sony have a monopoly on digital distribution of games on their console platforms, and charge some percent that I can't easily find. Hell, if you take this thought to conclusion, Epic…

> Apple is doing what everyone else is doing

Microsoft has the Xbox Game Pass app on Android, Apple is doing the opposite.

> but if that is illegal then it should also be illegal for Epic to have a monopoly on skins in Rocket League.

I think the analogy doesn't fit. Like a laptop/desktop, smartphones are general computing platforms. Specific purpose devices like iPods, Nintendo Switch really don't fit into this category much less a game.

Imagine if Microsoft had not allowed Windows to play nice with iPods, they wouldn't have sold the volumes they were able to move and Apple wouldn't have been able to built themselves back up.

Smartphones/tablets have been the logical successors of desktops/laptops for a lot of consumers. They have to be open for others to flourish as well. The last thing I would want is for few companies to own everything, everyone should get a chance to compete on equal terms.

Re: Epic, Spotify, and Tinder form advocacy group to push for app store changes

#344

Post by lotsofpulp » Thu, Sep 24, 2020, 5:00 PM UTC

munificent wrote: post #315

dgellow wrote: post #296

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What I learned from past experiences is to never use analogies. They are almost always a source of distraction, people start to argue about the analogy itself instead of the topic at hand, which is almost always completely counter productive. Also it often only makes sense in the mind of the author...

> They are almost always a source of distraction, people start to argue about the analogy itself instead of the topic at hand, which is almost always completely counter productive. My experience is that this is very true among a certain group of people, particularly literal-minded software enngineer types. But it is much less true in the general population where a single good analogy can accomplish more than pages of…

My experience is analogies are erroneously as supporting arguments to jump from premise to conclusion of an unrelated topic. I saw them a lot at my family's various religious/cult gatherings when I was a kid. The preacher would state something and then "prove" it with an analogy.

Analogies don't accomplish anything in basically all of the uses I've seen. People want them to serve as proof, but it's a lazy way of getting out of showing the validity of a conclusion.

Re: Epic, Spotify, and Tinder form advocacy group to push for app store changes

#345

Post by dec0dedab0de » Thu, Sep 24, 2020, 5:01 PM UTC

lotsofpulp wrote: post #327

manigandham wrote: post #312

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Having an alternative to the App Store doesn't mean you have to stop using the App Store, or suffer any reduction in quality in the apps available on the App Store. Nothing changes for you in exchange for more freedom for others.

I assume a device's security is improved by being hampering the ability to install software. Can I rely on an Android device to not be tampered with or have malware just as much as I can an iOS device? I don't mean secure as in the NSA can't break into it. I mean secure as in normal people can't mess it up clicking bullshit links in WhatsApp messages.

I'm guessing you don't use Android at all, but it is very difficult to accidentally install something outside of the play store. I would even say it is tricky to purposely install something outside of the play store.

Re: Epic, Spotify, and Tinder form advocacy group to push for app store changes

#346

Post by porknubbins » Thu, Sep 24, 2020, 5:02 PM UTC

dgellow wrote: post #296

danShumway wrote: post #11

Can we just link directly to the advocacy group's page ( https://appfairness.org/ )? I'm not certain the article is adding anything. ---- I'm generally supportive of at least some of Epic's arguments towards Apple, and I do believe that Apple (and multiple other FAANG companies) are engaged in anti-competitive behavior that's currently hurting the market. But a lot of the arguments I'm reading on the App Fairness sit…

What I learned from past experiences is to never use analogies. They are almost always a source of distraction, people start to argue about the analogy itself instead of the topic at hand, which is almost always completely counter productive. Also it often only makes sense in the mind of the author...

Every journalistic or popular science or economics book I’ve read recently seems to go to great lengths to come up with helpful analogies (sometimes dragging on for pages.) But there is a fundamental contradiction in that the topic of the book is supposedly interesting or remarkable because something about it is novel, otherwise the book wouldn’t need to exist. The analogy can give readers a fake feeling of following along, but whenever I study the topic in detail I find the analogy based understanding was incorrect.

Re: Epic, Spotify, and Tinder form advocacy group to push for app store changes

#347

Post by return1 » Thu, Sep 24, 2020, 5:02 PM UTC

ghostwriter wrote: post #170

return1 wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That s pure whataboutsm. Nothing stops apple from vetting apps without charging an extortionate 30% tax. They have plenty of money to do that. Or do you imply that apple’s tax deters scammers? Then , how are these companies accepted in the app store?

I was told in other threads that taxes, especially if they are progressive, are a good thing and that they help the society and the government to function, and that we pay them because we receive services in exchange, and that it doesn't matter how satisfied we are with those services. If you call Apple charges taxes, be consistent and respect them as any other tax in your life. Or denounce all of them. Or stop calli…

Taxation is theft.

That said, i dont see how paying the apple tax for the apps i buy is benefiting me at all, since i'm in Europe.

Re: Epic, Spotify, and Tinder form advocacy group to push for app store changes

#348

Post by sercand » Thu, Sep 24, 2020, 5:02 PM UTC

crazygringo wrote: post #159

temp667 wrote: post #97

Haha - this illustrates WHY the app store is so popular. You've got Match.com (owns tinder). Repeat FTC offender (most scammmers never get the FTC slap on the wrist). "Match Group also allegedly makes it too difficult to cancel a subscription through “confusing and cumbersome cancellation practices.” The FTC claims users must click through two pages of survey questions and cites a 2015 internal presentation that note…

> this illustrates WHY the app store is so popular No it doesn't. The app store is "popular" because Apple users don't have a choice. It's "popular" because they're forced to use it. I'm neither defending it or criticizing it... but let's not pretend like consumers are choosing the app store. Users in general are choosing Apple vs Android primarily for reasons that have nothing to do with an app store (i.e. hardware,…

I subscribed and purchased lots of random apps through App Store because it is easy and I know that I can easily cancel my subscription or refund my money. So far, I only subscribed to Netflix and Sketch from a website. I can easily say that I threw more of my money to random apps on AppStore.

If a subscription service would use Apple Pay and I can cancel inside Apple Pay by deactivating the virtual card, I may subscribe these services in or out iPhone. But Apple pay is not available on everywhere.

Re: Epic, Spotify, and Tinder form advocacy group to push for app store changes

#349

Post by pb7 » Thu, Sep 24, 2020, 5:03 PM UTC

ViViDboarder wrote: post #218

dividuum wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also why limit to app stores. I want to sell my own cosmetics on their fortnite item store (jk, I don’t). Valve allows that for games like CSGO, if I understand that correctly. The whole „they build a platform, I want a part“ is weird.

Because app stores are acting as platforms as well as used to restrict third parties and improve first party products. Does Fortnite even have a platform for developing cosmetics and selling them? If not, then this argument misses the mark. Consoles do provide salient examples though.

Why isn't Epic forced to make it a platform? They have a large captive audience with money and I want a cut of it. Opening it up to everyone will drive competition to the digital skin market, and as we all know from this thread, that's a good thing. Why does Epic get to monopolize their game's monetization?

Re: Epic, Spotify, and Tinder form advocacy group to push for app store changes

#350

Post by ilikehurdles » Thu, Sep 24, 2020, 5:04 PM UTC

stefano wrote: post #249

DevKoala wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why? As a developer it sounds like a nightmare, but as a costumer, I like it. It makes for a great experience.

Because it's as far as you can go from being a "Hacker".

People here are consumers too. To give my anecdata:

I used to subscribe to the NYT and made the mistake of not subscribing using Apple's subscriptions mechanism. When I wanted to cancel for a while, I had to go through a whole spiel with their sales rep to get them to honor my cancellation. With other subscription services on Apple (like many the TV streaming subscriptions) cancelling is a couple of standard clicks and you're done. No questions asked. I've cancelled and re-subscribed to thing like HBO multiple times because of it, but I will never be resubscribing to the NYT again.

I don't want 90 different ways to cancel 90 different subscriptions from 90 different stores for 90 different apps on my phone, so yeah I do appreciate having one place to do it, and I wish it were harder for developers to skirt the App Store infrastructure to push their own consumer-hostile options.