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EU beckons Indian tech talent

economictimes.indiatimes.com

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Re: EU beckons Indian tech talent

#221

Post by blub »

baybal2 wrote: post #170
ChuckNorris89 wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But you can easily live in the Western Europe on even €30k. EASILY! And happily, and stress free. If that was the case, birthrates wouldn't be so low in Europe. Free school and healthcare doesn't support your family when rents are higher than ever and fewer people than ever can afford to buy a property to raise a family in.

If you live in the EU, downshift! With stable $30k you can easily buy a seaside villa in Bulgaria on a 7 year credit with today rates.

I've come to the conclusion that the economics are only part of the story.

Unless one is single, there's a ton of stuff you have to worry about, from finding a job for the spouse, to learning the language, subtle to not so subtle xenophobia, navigating a different social & political system, etc. Moving with kids makes things even more complicated, to the point that we essentially only have migration from poorer to richer countries. I'd wager immigration from the west to the east is almost zero. I know some cases, but it's a tiny minority.

Then there's the fact that most people don't want to live in another country, surrounded by foreigners speaking a language they will almost certainly never speak fluently themselves.

Re: EU beckons Indian tech talent

#222

Post by bingerman »

thbr99 wrote: post #127

Going by the general tone of comments here. How about making something like the old Chineese head tax in Canada. Let's restrict Indians & Chineese and allow only whites to immigrate. Then I think it would be OK for everyone white. Racism,white privilege, white entitlement exists in HN at this day & age.

Equating serious concern of the effects of cheap foreign labour with racism is a wonderful way to prevent any meaningful discussion. Bonus points for antagonizing white people, that kind of pure racism is not really helping anyone.

Re: EU beckons Indian tech talent

#223

Post by blub »

tzone wrote: post #136
ChuckNorris89 wrote: post #16

I wish EU work visa restrictions would be as high as the US ones. Tech salaries in Western Europe are low enough as it is and the whole developer shortage the employers keep crying about to the media is a scam to justify lax visa restrictions for cheaper workforce from abroad. Under current conditions EU companies can hire pretty much anyone across the globe. Do you think SV salaries would be as high as they are if t…

This seems kind of backwards to be honest. The crackdown on H1-Bs will definitely have long term negative consequences on US tech economy, not positive consequences. A lot of major progress in tech was possible specifically because it was very easy to get h1-b visas especially for immigrants who came to study in US colleges. Imo the issue with European immigration system is that it isn't welcoming for permanent immig…

The US is perfectly capable of supplying the minds that will invent next year's technologies, but probably not at the current salaries :) It just might be that the companies making tens of billions will have to start sharing more of the pie.

"the outsourcing companies will get better and do the job cheaper remotely from India, so even more of the tech work will just get outsourced, meaning there will be even less tech jobs in Europe. You really can't stop the inevitable consequences of the global free market, unless you want to go full protectionist. So acquiring and KEEPING skilled labor through immigration is probably a much smarter long term choice compared to protectionist immigration strategies. "

I'd like to see some arguments in support of your statements. Outsourcing companies are more or less stuck at the same level, because they just jump from crappy project to crappy project and they don't invest in employee development and furthermore treat their employees poorly.

There's a line of reasoning saying that the current political meltdown in Western Europe is a direct cause of the global free market which is royally fucking blue-collar professions and is also hitting the upper layers. They've had enough of being force-fed globalization and multi-culturalism and now they're lashing out.

Re: EU beckons Indian tech talent

#224

Post by blub »

zerr wrote: post #64
ChuckNorris89 wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're not correct. EU citizens should be allowed to work anywhere in EU member states. That's fine, it's one of the founding principles of EU membership. The problem is when EU companies have virtually no restrictions on hiring people outside the EU putting even more downward pressure on local salaries in high COL areas.

EU is just a yet another set of deals. Switzerland is not even a EU member - it has a yet another set of deals. There are reasons for such deals as with Blue card deals or similar. Preferring one deal over another just because of nationality or race is wrong.

This is the way the world works, each country prioritizes the well-being of its own citizens. There is no other model that is known to work. The burden of proof is on those proposing unlimited freedom of movement to show that their model would work just as well or better.

As an EU citizen I'm well aware that the EU is full of inter-regional conflicts and xenophobia. Currently there's a very concerning shift to the political right, to protectionism and nationalism, partly fueled by the long-standing migration-related problems and more recent refugee "crisis".

Inviting even more people over from outside the EU would be like pouring fuel on the fire. I can't imagine what the politicians are thinking here... they can barely keep things under control as it is.

Re: EU beckons Indian tech talent

#225

Post by blub »

LatteLazy wrote: post #91
onion2k wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That assumes being the best software engineer is a trait you're born with rather than something you learn. That's unlikely. It's much more likely that the best software engineers are concentrated in places where everyone receives a very high level of education. As education varies massively across the world, the best software engineers probably aren't distributed based on population sizes.

I can see where you're coming from, but the reason i ignored the distribution function is that it's very complex. You're right that education is a factor. But it's only one. If you took 2 (groups of) prospective software engineers, would the fact that India is a poor country, with a lot more respect for engineers, where education is much more demanding and less accommodating not mean you ended up with better (more ro…

"India[...] where education is much more demanding and less accommodating not mean you ended up with better (more robust, more independent, better at working without assistance) engineers from the Indian group that the other group?"

I've never heard anyone ever online or in person praise Indian universities or describe Indian workers on average as more independent. The descriptions that I'm aware of are far less flattering, including from Indians themselves.

What are the above statements based on? Is there any university ranking or study you can reference?

"I'm just saying, there are plenty of great people in every country. The quick path to improve home is to get them to come here."

The wise thing to do is support local workers and train them to become better instead of stealing the "brains" of another country. Western Europe already did this with Eastern Europe, and those countries are significantly poorer for it, because a huge chunk of their intellectual elites have left their respective countries.

Re: EU beckons Indian tech talent

#226

Post by blub »

Mvandenbergh wrote: post #47
elfexec wrote: post #43

The EU has over 500 million people in a landmass that is less than half the size of the US. Does the EU really need to import workers from overseas given how overpopulated it is relative to its landmass size? If the EU was the size of the US, it's population would be 1.2 billion people. Similar to china and india. Why aren't they able to find the workers locally? Is it poor planning? Did they not train enough tech wo…

By that logic, the US has many unemployed people and many, many people earning low wages in low productivity industries. Why not just train them properly rather than import workers from elsewhere?

Because businesses are too greedy and noticed that they can import cheaper workers or outsourcing and the politicians are letting them get away with it.

The US should absolutely improve its education and social safety net. :-/ The average American Joe is getting screwed so much by the politicians and businessmen that it makes even people like me which have never set foot in the US sad.

Re: EU beckons Indian tech talent

#227

Post by dang »

Isinlor wrote: post #95
ChuckNorris89 wrote: post #16

I wish EU work visa restrictions would be as high as the US ones. Tech salaries in Western Europe are low enough as it is and the whole developer shortage the employers keep crying about to the media is a scam to justify lax visa restrictions for cheaper workforce from abroad. Under current conditions EU companies can hire pretty much anyone across the globe. Do you think SV salaries would be as high as they are if t…

> as it increases the inequality Really?! Speaking about inequality is so hypocritical in this context that it just boils my blood. I could understand if you were having trouble to earn a living. But you can easily live in the Western Europe on even €30k. EASILY! And happily, and stress free. Your kids will get free education, free collage. You will get tons of vacations, 38 hours work week. But no, you want more. Yo…

Your comment breaks many of the site guidelines. That's not ok, regardless of how wrong or bad some other comment is (or you feel it is). Would you mind reviewing https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and using this site as intended? Flamewar rants, personal attacks, and denunciatory rhetoric are no way to persuade anyone, let alone to have curious conversation, which is what this site is for.

It's clear that you have good reasons for feeling strongly on this topic, and I definitely don't mean to disrespect that. But it's necessary to post respectfully and with dignity in order to properly represent one's point of view on a topic like this. If you stoop to just flaming the other side, you end up discrediting the very truth that you're trying to express (https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que...).

Re: EU beckons Indian tech talent

#228

Post by Isinlor »

ramblerman wrote: post #138
Isinlor wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> as it increases the inequality Really?! Speaking about inequality is so hypocritical in this context that it just boils my blood. I could understand if you were having trouble to earn a living. But you can easily live in the Western Europe on even €30k. EASILY! And happily, and stress free. Your kids will get free education, free collage. You will get tons of vacations, 38 hours work week. But no, you want more. Yo…

> EASILY! And happily, and stress free. Your kids will get free education, free collage. You will get tons of vacations, 38 hours work week. Most Europeans can’t afford a house anymore. The fear for a lot is that excess immigration and taking on refugees will break the social welfare you just mentioned. I actually agree with a lot of your points though and envision a similar future that will be less about borders. Bu…

I know that I got emotional. But to be honest, I think emotions are sometimes important to make the point clear.

> The fear for a lot is that excess immigration and taking on refugees will break the social welfare you just mentioned.

I understand that fear. As I was responding to another person in this thread, I know people ruthlessly exploiting western social programs to the extend that they manage to live exclusively, or almost exclusively on welfare. My mother has a neighbor who was laughing that she is silly to work, because she has Belgian fiancée and she should live off social support.

But that is not the type of argument that was made originally.

The original comment was by an entitled software developer, who hides behind equality.

> Most Europeans can’t afford a house anymore.

Many people say it, but I never seen a good analysis of that issue. If you have data to back that up I would be very happy to see it. That's something that I wanted to research for some time. My biggest question is whether it was really so easy before, or is it just still difficult. Is the issue related to immigration? Or is it due to regulations? Or something else?

Re: EU beckons Indian tech talent

#229

Post by dang »

Fjordbored wrote: post #153
Isinlor wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> as it increases the inequality Really?! Speaking about inequality is so hypocritical in this context that it just boils my blood. I could understand if you were having trouble to earn a living. But you can easily live in the Western Europe on even €30k. EASILY! And happily, and stress free. Your kids will get free education, free collage. You will get tons of vacations, 38 hours work week. But no, you want more. Yo…

Ok, neo-liberal shill.

We've banned this account for breaking the site guidelines. Please don't create accounts to do that with.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re: EU beckons Indian tech talent

#230

Post by dang »

ChuckNorris89 wrote: post #111
d44m wrote: post #108

I look at it as a simple trade of goods. Hiring a Software Engineer from India is like an Indian buying a German car. If Germany can export cars to India and France can export wines, then India can export their talent. So, if you are confident of your skills and what they are worth, you should naturally go to the USA.

>I look at it as a simple trade of goods. Hiring a Software Engineer from India is like an Indian buying a German car. That's by far the silliest thing I've read this week. Even beats Trump's tweets.

Please don't post flamebait and/or unsubstantive comments to HN. We've already had to ask you about this.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

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