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EU beckons Indian tech talent

economictimes.indiatimes.com

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Re: EU beckons Indian tech talent

#91

Post by LatteLazy »

onion2k wrote: post #82
LatteLazy wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

if you want the 7 best software engineers on earth, statistically 1.4 of them are in china, 1.2 in india etc, only 0.5 of them are in Europe. So you import the others. Only you want the 7 million best software engineers (plus other engineers, doctors, lawyers, writers, artists, scientists, teachers etc)

That assumes being the best software engineer is a trait you're born with rather than something you learn. That's unlikely. It's much more likely that the best software engineers are concentrated in places where everyone receives a very high level of education. As education varies massively across the world, the best software engineers probably aren't distributed based on population sizes.

I can see where you're coming from, but the reason i ignored the distribution function is that it's very complex. You're right that education is a factor. But it's only one. If you took 2 (groups of) prospective software engineers, would the fact that India is a poor country, with a lot more respect for engineers, where education is much more demanding and less accommodating not mean you ended up with better (more robust, more independent, better at working without assistance) engineers from the Indian group that the other group?

And even if India only produces say one tenth the rate of great engineers that the EU does, you still want those!

Im actually more than happy to admit the other side too by the way: it drives me nuts when politicians commit to be tough on immigration except for skilled immigrants of course. Why am I or you competing for jobs and getting lower salaries because we got on and got educated but an unskilled labourer deserves a monopoly? I'm just saying, there are plenty of great people in every country. The quick path to improve home is to get them to come here.

Re: EU beckons Indian tech talent

#92

Post by tolqen »

elfexec wrote: post #58
Mvandenbergh wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By that logic, the US has many unemployed people and many, many people earning low wages in low productivity industries. Why not just train them properly rather than import workers from elsewhere?

I agree. I don't think we should be importing any workers. We have 330 million people and that should be plenty. Importing workers disincentivizes US elites from developing our own local work force. And importing workers hurts the nation that is losing workers. Shouldn't all the indian tech workers be used in india to help india develop? Isn't it morally wrong for a wealthy nation like the US ( or wealthy political e…

you've got some advanced lump of labour nonsense going on here

Re: EU beckons Indian tech talent

#93

Post by pnako »

LatteLazy wrote: post #70
elfexec wrote: post #43

The EU has over 500 million people in a landmass that is less than half the size of the US. Does the EU really need to import workers from overseas given how overpopulated it is relative to its landmass size? If the EU was the size of the US, it's population would be 1.2 billion people. Similar to china and india. Why aren't they able to find the workers locally? Is it poor planning? Did they not train enough tech wo…

if you want the 7 best software engineers on earth, statistically 1.4 of them are in china, 1.2 in india etc, only 0.5 of them are in Europe. So you import the others. Only you want the 7 million best software engineers (plus other engineers, doctors, lawyers, writers, artists, scientists, teachers etc)

Why not let those people live in their countries with their families, friends, cultures and traditions, and simply import the amazing software they're going to write?

The idea that the we need to concentrate the best people in a few cities in the west is both absurd and dangerous.

Re: EU beckons Indian tech talent

#94

Post by collyw »

alexgmcm wrote: post #81
samsonradu wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You can still buy a house Read `take a 30y mortgage` with plenty of downside risk is quite a low bar for one of the best paying industries in the world. The disconnect between salaries and the housing market in western EU is pretty much at an all-time high. If these are the expectations for tech salaries then how about the rest of the (middle-class) workforce?

>If these are the expectations for tech salaries then how about the rest of the (middle-class) workforce? The expectation seems to be we will go back to a sharp division between property owners and eternal tenants, like it was when my 95 year old grandparents were kids. The Old World still likes its Feudalism it seems.

Is it better in the US? San Fancisco / NY / Boston sound way worse despite way higher wages. I don't really hear much from people outside of those places.

Re: EU beckons Indian tech talent

#95

Post by Isinlor »

ChuckNorris89 wrote: post #16

I wish EU work visa restrictions would be as high as the US ones. Tech salaries in Western Europe are low enough as it is and the whole developer shortage the employers keep crying about to the media is a scam to justify lax visa restrictions for cheaper workforce from abroad. Under current conditions EU companies can hire pretty much anyone across the globe. Do you think SV salaries would be as high as they are if t…

> as it increases the inequality

Really?! Speaking about inequality is so hypocritical in this context that it just boils my blood.

I could understand if you were having trouble to earn a living. But you can easily live in the Western Europe on even €30k. EASILY! And happily, and stress free. Your kids will get free education, free collage. You will get tons of vacations, 38 hours work week.

But no, you want more. You want luxury life, you want to keep the rest of the world underneath you.

Letting poor people compete with you on fair terms does not increase inequality. It undermines your position of power.

Western Europeans and their ancestors benefited greatly from conquest all over the world.

Are Indians and Chinese somehow second rate people? They do not deserve to even compete with the White Elite of Western Europe?

You should stop being egoist. Start your own company if you do not like being employee.

Re: EU beckons Indian tech talent

#96

Post by tluyben2 »

rrrazdan wrote: post #32

A counterpoint to the article. As a founder in India we have recently started thinking about hiring people from EU, especially the eastern part. If however the criteria and salary for a good programmer is EUR 42k pa as a comment below suggests, you can earn decently more than that at multiple companies, including mine.

Do they need to move to India? I can see many interested people but not if they have to move...

Re: EU beckons Indian tech talent

#97

Post by tluyben2 »

Vesuvium wrote: post #85
Znafon wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Importing people with wages under €50k disincentivizes employers from paying fair wages Why would €42k not a fair wage? Looking at INSEE data, the median salary in France is €38409, 42k-50k to write API endpoints seems fair to me, what do you think would be appropriate?

Tech companies cluster in big cities, which are expensive. 50k in a small town is lots, 50k in London or Amsterdam is pocket money.

Yeah, so the EU should focus more on stimulating remote work instead of stuffing cities like the rest of the world.

Re: EU beckons Indian tech talent

#99

Post by frockington1 »

alexgmcm wrote: post #81
samsonradu wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You can still buy a house Read `take a 30y mortgage` with plenty of downside risk is quite a low bar for one of the best paying industries in the world. The disconnect between salaries and the housing market in western EU is pretty much at an all-time high. If these are the expectations for tech salaries then how about the rest of the (middle-class) workforce?

>If these are the expectations for tech salaries then how about the rest of the (middle-class) workforce? The expectation seems to be we will go back to a sharp division between property owners and eternal tenants, like it was when my 95 year old grandparents were kids. The Old World still likes its Feudalism it seems.

>Is it better in the US? The places you listed are probably the worse when it comes to feudalism-lite. I live in the middle of the country and the engineers I graduates with purchased property around 26-27. Our salaries are probably 75% of the bigger cities but cost of living easily makes up for that (in my opinion).

Re: EU beckons Indian tech talent

#100

Post by pnako »

Isinlor wrote: post #95
ChuckNorris89 wrote: post #16

I wish EU work visa restrictions would be as high as the US ones. Tech salaries in Western Europe are low enough as it is and the whole developer shortage the employers keep crying about to the media is a scam to justify lax visa restrictions for cheaper workforce from abroad. Under current conditions EU companies can hire pretty much anyone across the globe. Do you think SV salaries would be as high as they are if t…

> as it increases the inequality Really?! Speaking about inequality is so hypocritical in this context that it just boils my blood. I could understand if you were having trouble to earn a living. But you can easily live in the Western Europe on even €30k. EASILY! And happily, and stress free. Your kids will get free education, free collage. You will get tons of vacations, 38 hours work week. But no, you want more. Yo…

I think you're attacking a straw man here. Chinese and Indian people can certainly compete with European people, and they do it everyday. But they can do it from China and India.
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