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EU beckons Indian tech talent

economictimes.indiatimes.com

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Re: EU beckons Indian tech talent

#81

Post by alexgmcm »

samsonradu wrote: post #53
blue_box wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

you can get a mortgage credit with a really low interest rate. If you have a family, your rent probably will be higher than your mortgage payment. (5% rule) so without earning a high salary, you can still buy a house.

> You can still buy a house Read `take a 30y mortgage` with plenty of downside risk is quite a low bar for one of the best paying industries in the world. The disconnect between salaries and the housing market in western EU is pretty much at an all-time high. If these are the expectations for tech salaries then how about the rest of the (middle-class) workforce?

>If these are the expectations for tech salaries then how about the rest of the (middle-class) workforce?

The expectation seems to be we will go back to a sharp division between property owners and eternal tenants, like it was when my 95 year old grandparents were kids.

The Old World still likes its Feudalism it seems.

Re: EU beckons Indian tech talent

#82

Post by onion2k »

LatteLazy wrote: post #70
elfexec wrote: post #43

The EU has over 500 million people in a landmass that is less than half the size of the US. Does the EU really need to import workers from overseas given how overpopulated it is relative to its landmass size? If the EU was the size of the US, it's population would be 1.2 billion people. Similar to china and india. Why aren't they able to find the workers locally? Is it poor planning? Did they not train enough tech wo…

if you want the 7 best software engineers on earth, statistically 1.4 of them are in china, 1.2 in india etc, only 0.5 of them are in Europe. So you import the others. Only you want the 7 million best software engineers (plus other engineers, doctors, lawyers, writers, artists, scientists, teachers etc)

That assumes being the best software engineer is a trait you're born with rather than something you learn. That's unlikely.

It's much more likely that the best software engineers are concentrated in places where everyone receives a very high level of education. As education varies massively across the world, the best software engineers probably aren't distributed based on population sizes.

Re: EU beckons Indian tech talent

#83

Post by aclsid »

ChuckNorris89 wrote: post #55
samsonradu wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You can still buy a house Read `take a 30y mortgage` with plenty of downside risk is quite a low bar for one of the best paying industries in the world. The disconnect between salaries and the housing market in western EU is pretty much at an all-time high. If these are the expectations for tech salaries then how about the rest of the (middle-class) workforce?

Don't know why you're being downvoted. If people would look at the property prices in German cities for example they'd get it. Unless you and your partner are very high earners you're priced out of buying anything family worthy in all cities with tech jobs.

Germany is the poster child for controlled rent working well for everybody, to the point where it is more of hassle to buy.

Re: EU beckons Indian tech talent

#84

Post by thrower123 »

ChuckNorris89 wrote: post #65
hos234 wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Companies will outsource, move development centers elsewhere etc etc. Visa restrictions alone aren't going to save anyones job. The world is too competitive.

The whole fear of outsourcing is a myth companies use to deregulate immigration and it needs to stop being used as fear mongering to justify lax regulations. If outsourcing was so good why hasn't all of SV packed and moved abroad already to cheap countries or even to cheaper states in the US instead of offering insane salaries at home? Companies stay in the west because of the ecosystem comprised of stable government…

Because outsourcing fails and is abandoned after two or three years, when the real costs have become apparent. The bastards that thought it up have moved up and out on the strengths of the initial cost savings by the time those chickens come home to roost.

You don't have to see this kind of cycle too many times before you get a little cynical.

Re: EU beckons Indian tech talent

#85

Post by Vesuvium »

Znafon wrote: post #76
ChuckNorris89 wrote: post #16

I wish EU work visa restrictions would be as high as the US ones. Tech salaries in Western Europe are low enough as it is and the whole developer shortage the employers keep crying about to the media is a scam to justify lax visa restrictions for cheaper workforce from abroad. Under current conditions EU companies can hire pretty much anyone across the globe. Do you think SV salaries would be as high as they are if t…

> Importing people with wages under €50k disincentivizes employers from paying fair wages Why would €42k not a fair wage? Looking at INSEE data, the median salary in France is €38409, 42k-50k to write API endpoints seems fair to me, what do you think would be appropriate?

Tech companies cluster in big cities, which are expensive. 50k in a small town is lots, 50k in London or Amsterdam is pocket money.

Re: EU beckons Indian tech talent

#86

Post by aclsid »

ChuckNorris89 wrote: post #40
zerr wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If we follow that route, Spanish, Portuguese or Italians shouldn't be allowed to work in Germany... Germans shouldn't be allowed to work in Switzerland, etc... Also, there are plenty of 50K-70K tech jobs in US - not everyone works in FAANG or lives in Bay Area.

You're not correct. EU citizens should be allowed to work anywhere in EU member states. That's fine, it's one of the founding principles of EU membership. The problem is when EU companies have virtually no restrictions on hiring people outside the EU putting even more downward pressure on local salaries in high COL areas.

I think more of an issue with who they hire it should be more about the minimum amount they are allowed to pay. That will tilt the scale in favor of home players since they already know the language, local customs, work culture, etc.

Re: EU beckons Indian tech talent

#87

Post by Jagat »

ChuckNorris89 wrote: post #16

I wish EU work visa restrictions would be as high as the US ones. Tech salaries in Western Europe are low enough as it is and the whole developer shortage the employers keep crying about to the media is a scam to justify lax visa restrictions for cheaper workforce from abroad. Under current conditions EU companies can hire pretty much anyone across the globe. Do you think SV salaries would be as high as they are if t…

You're decrying inequality, and supporting the ridiculous SV salaries in the same paragraph.

>> Do you think SV salaries would be as high as they are if they could import any workers hassle free?

There's nothing great about the wealth generated by the entire global digital industry being concentrated in a few cities.

Re: EU beckons Indian tech talent

#88

Post by inertiatic »

chpmrc wrote: post #75
ChuckNorris89 wrote: post #16

I wish EU work visa restrictions would be as high as the US ones. Tech salaries in Western Europe are low enough as it is and the whole developer shortage the employers keep crying about to the media is a scam to justify lax visa restrictions for cheaper workforce from abroad. Under current conditions EU companies can hire pretty much anyone across the globe. Do you think SV salaries would be as high as they are if t…

> Do you think SV salaries would be as high as they are if they could import any workers hassle free? Yes, given there are many companies paying SV salaries to remote devs from all over the planet. (Off the top of my head: Buffer, HotJar, Superside, Stack Overflow)

I thought HotJar positions advertised 70-90k, a number that would also be adjusted further based on cost of living.

Re: EU beckons Indian tech talent

#89

Post by pnako »

hos234 wrote: post #80
ChuckNorris89 wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The whole fear of outsourcing is a myth companies use to deregulate immigration and it needs to stop being used as fear mongering to justify lax regulations. If outsourcing was so good why hasn't all of SV packed and moved abroad already to cheap countries or even to cheaper states in the US instead of offering insane salaries at home? Companies stay in the west because of the ecosystem comprised of stable government…

If Airbus wants to hire 300 software engineers, good luck finding them in reasonable time periods in Germany or France. Local small niche firms can survive. The larger you get the longer it takes to hit hiring goal. You will understand that only after you spend time actually hiring people. Telling the boss well I can't do this locally in 3 months, I need 6 plus a budget to relocate people from other EU locations will…

> If Airbus wants to hire 300 software engineers, good luck finding them in reasonable time periods in Germany or France.

Are you serious? Countries with traditions of engineering going back centuries, with some of the best schools in the field, will have trouble to find... 300 software engineers?

Re: EU beckons Indian tech talent

#90

Post by negamax »

ChuckNorris89 wrote: post #73
zerr wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Is it a problem of race/nationality It is, when you're saying that it is fine for Romanians or Polish to dump the market, but not Indians.

You see, now you're making it a problem of nationality. EU membership allows free movement of capital, goods and workforce between EU states with equal rights. Singling out Romania and Poland means you have a personal problem with these nationalities. Don't like it? Vote your country leaving the EU. Oh, and FYI, Romanian tech salaries are some of the highest in EU where new grads can earn €2k NET due to a hot market…

That's still not good enough as compared to Zurich or Amsterdam. Or many other cities. Why stop at tech. Many Romanians and other poor EU immigrants move across Europe for all kind of jobs. I don't think you have thought this through and not realizing or outright ignoring xenophobia in your arguments.
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