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EU beckons Indian tech talent

economictimes.indiatimes.com

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Re: EU beckons Indian tech talent

#71

Post by ossworkerrights »

scribu wrote: post #23
timwaagh wrote: post #11

it's kinda sad european programmers get pushed out of entry level positions by typically more experienced indians willing to work for some premium above indian wage. this ensures programming is not a very well paid job in west europe. europe has problems in the education system which makes sure people only start programming after college further putting eu workers at a disadvantage versus indians and russians. which…

> europe has problems in the education system which makes sure people only start programming after college further In Romania (Eastern Europe) you can start to learn programming from high school. Not sure what it's like in Western Europe.

The romanian education system is grossly overrated by people from that country. From experience, the quality of engineering there is only marginally better than that of india and statistically speaking the education system is the second worst in europe. Universities are ripe with corruption as well. There are some good engineers but overall it is horrible.

Re: EU beckons Indian tech talent

#72

Post by ossworkerrights »

ChuckNorris89 wrote: post #16

I wish EU work visa restrictions would be as high as the US ones. Tech salaries in Western Europe are low enough as it is and the whole developer shortage the employers keep crying about to the media is a scam to justify lax visa restrictions for cheaper workforce from abroad. Under current conditions EU companies can hire pretty much anyone across the globe. Do you think SV salaries would be as high as they are if t…

This eu madness, mainly drive by germany, to allow mass migration due to a lack “of labour” needs to end. I welcome immigrants but they are heavily abused by means of lower wages, and it depresses local wages as well.

Re: EU beckons Indian tech talent

#73

Post by ChuckNorris89 »

zerr wrote: post #69
ChuckNorris89 wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hiring restrictions to the EU exclusively have nothing to do with race but they do with nationality and there's nothing wrong with that. As an EU national and EU taxpayer for decades, I expect to be a first class citizen of my region and the governing bodies to prioritize my well being first as much as I expect the US or Chinese or Indian governments to prioritize the well being of thier citizens first as opposed to…

> Is it a problem of race/nationality It is, when you're saying that it is fine for Romanians or Polish to dump the market, but not Indians.

You see, now you're making it a problem of nationality.

EU membership allows free movement of capital, goods and workforce between EU states with equal rights. Singling out Romania and Poland means you have a personal problem with these nationalities.

Don't like it? Vote your country leaving the EU.

Oh, and FYI, Romanian tech salaries are some of the highest in EU where new grads can earn €2k NET due to a hot market and low taxes so your point about wage dumping doesn't hold.

Re: EU beckons Indian tech talent

#74

Post by ossworkerrights »

rrrazdan wrote: post #32

A counterpoint to the article. As a founder in India we have recently started thinking about hiring people from EU, especially the eastern part. If however the criteria and salary for a good programmer is EUR 42k pa as a comment below suggests, you can earn decently more than that at multiple companies, including mine.

People from the eastern part of the eu, taking a 42k a year salary are probably mid to senior. Salaries in east europe are higher than that, and the quality of life is way better than india.

Re: EU beckons Indian tech talent

#75

Post by chpmrc »

ChuckNorris89 wrote: post #16

I wish EU work visa restrictions would be as high as the US ones. Tech salaries in Western Europe are low enough as it is and the whole developer shortage the employers keep crying about to the media is a scam to justify lax visa restrictions for cheaper workforce from abroad. Under current conditions EU companies can hire pretty much anyone across the globe. Do you think SV salaries would be as high as they are if t…

> Do you think SV salaries would be as high as they are if they could import any workers hassle free?

Yes, given there are many companies paying SV salaries to remote devs from all over the planet. (Off the top of my head: Buffer, HotJar, Superside, Stack Overflow)

Re: EU beckons Indian tech talent

#76

Post by Znafon »

ChuckNorris89 wrote: post #16

I wish EU work visa restrictions would be as high as the US ones. Tech salaries in Western Europe are low enough as it is and the whole developer shortage the employers keep crying about to the media is a scam to justify lax visa restrictions for cheaper workforce from abroad. Under current conditions EU companies can hire pretty much anyone across the globe. Do you think SV salaries would be as high as they are if t…

> Importing people with wages under €50k disincentivizes employers from paying fair wages

Why would €42k not a fair wage? Looking at INSEE data, the median salary in France is €38409, 42k-50k to write API endpoints seems fair to me, what do you think would be appropriate?

Re: EU beckons Indian tech talent

#77

Post by ChuckNorris89 »

Znafon wrote: post #76
ChuckNorris89 wrote: post #16

I wish EU work visa restrictions would be as high as the US ones. Tech salaries in Western Europe are low enough as it is and the whole developer shortage the employers keep crying about to the media is a scam to justify lax visa restrictions for cheaper workforce from abroad. Under current conditions EU companies can hire pretty much anyone across the globe. Do you think SV salaries would be as high as they are if t…

> Importing people with wages under €50k disincentivizes employers from paying fair wages Why would €42k not a fair wage? Looking at INSEE data, the median salary in France is €38409, 42k-50k to write API endpoints seems fair to me, what do you think would be appropriate?

You made my point. €42k may be a fair wage for writing APIs but it's in no way a skill or a salary you can claim there's a shortage on within the EU workforce like doctors for example, to justify importing external workers.

You say you have a shortage for API devs?

Then either:

1) pay more at which point you'll be flooded with aplicants and if not then you have a real claim for skill shortage with the government and can secure visas for immigrant workers or

2)train them yourself, there's plenty of motivated people of all ages willing to learn something that's in demand. Simples.

But what's that?! Investing in the workforce is too expensive for the shareholders?! Boo-hoo, my heart bleeds for the poor companies and their offshore accounts.

Re: EU beckons Indian tech talent

#78

Post by CalRobert »

blue_box wrote: post #20
ChuckNorris89 wrote: post #16

I wish EU work visa restrictions would be as high as the US ones. Tech salaries in Western Europe are low enough as it is and the whole developer shortage the employers keep crying about to the media is a scam to justify lax visa restrictions for cheaper workforce from abroad. Under current conditions EU companies can hire pretty much anyone across the globe. Do you think SV salaries would be as high as they are if t…

Of course, people who come from abroad have some effect on the salaries but I think the main reason is that life quality is really high in Europe (especially in Germany) so employees don't negotiate properly for their salary. When I talk with my colleagues, most of them are saying that the money that they earn is enough, there is no reason to ask for more. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I used to scoff but this might be part of it. I think asking for money is considered vulgar, at least subconsciously. Tall poppy syndrome is real too.

Re: EU beckons Indian tech talent

#80

Post by hos234 »

ChuckNorris89 wrote: post #65
hos234 wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Companies will outsource, move development centers elsewhere etc etc. Visa restrictions alone aren't going to save anyones job. The world is too competitive.

The whole fear of outsourcing is a myth companies use to deregulate immigration and it needs to stop being used as fear mongering to justify lax regulations. If outsourcing was so good why hasn't all of SV packed and moved abroad already to cheap countries or even to cheaper states in the US instead of offering insane salaries at home? Companies stay in the west because of the ecosystem comprised of stable government…

If Airbus wants to hire 300 software engineers, good luck finding them in reasonable time periods in Germany or France. Local small niche firms can survive. The larger you get the longer it takes to hit hiring goal.

You will understand that only after you spend time actually hiring people. Telling the boss well I can't do this locally in 3 months, I need 6 plus a budget to relocate people from other EU locations will just get you laughed out of the room for the simple reason someone else in the org has already done it through outsourcing and importing people.

> Companies stay in the west because of the ecosystem comprised of stable government, financing and skilled workforce

This is probably 10-15 year old rhetoric that isnt true anymore. There are now dozens of hubs worldwide that make it simple to hire large number of people fast. Just make a trip and look at the scale at which they function.

The EU is doing the right thing by trying to pull more people in.

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