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Millions of Men Are Missing from the Job Market

nytimes.com

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Re: Millions of Men Are Missing from the Job Market

#121

Post by zer0gravity »

reverend_gonzo wrote: post #95
zer0gravity wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think I resonate with you. I think that the number one occupation we should have is to live our lives. The way we do this should be according to our values and not neccesarily to how others think we should. Now, life has a mechanistic component driven by neccesities and an artistic one driven by ideals, self expression and pleasure. The promised goal of modern technology was that a large part of the rutined work co…

I'm not sure if many realize, but in such a world very few would actually work. All the rest will play. Okay, so who decides who will work and who will play? Why should I bust my ass all day working, while you just live however you want to? Right now, the reason some people bust their ass working, is being they can get paid more and live a higher quality of life. If everybody get everything they want, why would anyon…

It all boils down to the play of intrinsic/forced choices.

But remember, AI may change things a lot. It'll not be a problem of you will work so I can sit, but more a problem of you and I will have some machines working for us, so what's left for us to do..

One of the implications I was talking about, is that the human psyche is built to function under survival pressure, when the pressure is removed, then depression may occur. So it's going to be very tricky, unless we train ourselves to function in a different mode.. where we are the masters.

Re: Millions of Men Are Missing from the Job Market

#122

Post by srean »

secstate wrote: post #52
andrepd wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The simple idea of idleness and staying at home to paint or draw seems to drive people crazy. It kinda does, because for you to be able to idle and sit in your home painting, somebody else has to go on the "giant treadmill" to feed you, house you, and clothe you. Do you think I wouldn't like to idle at home as I please, and paint and write and read and laze about? Only if everybody did that we would all starve to de…

I think the problem with your statement is that the Information Revolution came with a philosophy that automation would end the need for 9-5 Industrial Revolution ideas of work. It hasn't, and we're still working 40 hours a week, but now it's to support the consumption machine that WWII created. Do we really need new original Netflix programming? Do we need whatever crazy-ass pumpkin and coffee flavored beverage a ha…

I doubt if leisure is even possible (at scale) in a free market economy. More than freedom of the market, what works against it is competition. We cant rest our laurels and say heck this is efficient enough. Someone would do it better and there goes my paycheck, to the point that profitability is small enough that it cannot sustain leisure for a significantly large population.

Re: Millions of Men Are Missing from the Job Market

#123

Post by return0 »

muse900 wrote: post #32

What I'll write might sound stupid to some but well... There needs to be a re-configuration of the global economy and its system. People like me late 20's and younger might be feeling that they have no future. At least I do. I am working full-time and thats fine. That only pays my day to day expenses, coming the end of the month am always out of money waiting for the next paycheck. Me buying my own house? That sounds…

I think you are trying to say (in a misguided way) that wage stagnation has severely affected millenials, which is absolutely true. With enough short-term distractions like phones, games, weed, porn etc, who needs long-term goals? Life is still kinda sucky, but hey there 's just enough fun to keep the grind going. There is no sense of collective "going forward", which lessens the peer pressure to exceed others. It won't be forever like that, but i don't expect grand changes for at least 5 years.

Re: Millions of Men Are Missing from the Job Market

#124

Post by muninn_ »

mfoy_ wrote: post #103
wernercd wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

$40k in debts to earn $80k+ per year for the rest of your life? Sounds like a good trade-off to me...

Well stated like that it sounds like a good deal, but that statement makes a list of assumptions as long as my arm that quite simply are not guaranteed.

Well in this context we're talking about software dev so. College graduates still makes a lot more over their lifetimes, debt or not, than high school grads.

Re: Millions of Men Are Missing from the Job Market

#125

Post by reverend_gonzo »

amorphid wrote: post #110
reverend_gonzo wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Jesus, there is so much entitlement in this post I don't even know where to start. No, you don't NEED an Apple iPhone, and a TV with Netflix, and Amazon, and a Gant sweater. There are thousands of families that are surviving just fine without any of that. We have survived for centuries without external entertainment, and suddenly, you NEED this so you don't get bored? Why not have a conversation with your wife. Sit d…

Entitled or not, it sucks to know that our American parents and grandparents could buy homes, and we cannot. You could be nicer about "yeah it sucks, I hear you, but all is not lost..."

I am in the same age range as the poster. Life is tough. Get over it.

You want nicer things? It has to come from somewhere.

And our parents did not have it easier. I would say if anything, they had it harder, and didn't get caught up in all the bullshit commericalism that is marketed to us today.

This is anecdote, but still, my parents worked 12 hours a day, 6 days a week, for 20 years, with one single vacation, so they could raise me.

You know what they have to show for it? Social security that pays about $800 a month and barely covers their mortgage, and a pension that pays $40 a month (yes, $40). That pension was from working a full-time job for about 20 years. And yet, they manage just fine.

So, no, our ancestors did not have it better. They just don't whine about it, and did whatever they had to do to survive.

Re: Millions of Men Are Missing from the Job Market

#126

Post by cjdkcnsnd »

trentnix wrote: post #42
makomk wrote: post #30

It probably doesn't help that some companies, such as Amazon, like to treat their unskilled labourers as basically disposable. It's a lot more profitable to set performance requirements that are impossible to meet without seriously injuring yourself, then replace all the temp workers regularly with fresh meat, than to have decent working conditions.

The scenario you describe simply doesn't pass the smell test. I own a business (retail) that employs 10 and retail is, to a certain degree, "unskilled". My experience has been that it is very, very difficult to find dependable, trustworthy employees who work diligently and productively. Consequently, employers simply do not have the "luxury" to set up a system that treats employees as disposable. It's not profitable…

>My experience has been that it is very, very difficult to find dependable, trustworthy employees who work diligently and productively

You forgot to append the most important part to that statement, and instead chose to leave it implied: "at the wage I am willing to pay." Pay your employees more money and better labor will come. So say the laws of supply and demand.

Re: Millions of Men Are Missing from the Job Market

#127

Post by eveningcoffee »

muninn_ wrote: post #82
secstate wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the problem with your statement is that the Information Revolution came with a philosophy that automation would end the need for 9-5 Industrial Revolution ideas of work. It hasn't, and we're still working 40 hours a week, but now it's to support the consumption machine that WWII created. Do we really need new original Netflix programming? Do we need whatever crazy-ass pumpkin and coffee flavored beverage a ha…

Well we don't need a TV at all. Or a 2,000 square foot house, or an education. We could just subsistence farm or something. Your life is what you make out of it. I work hard, think consumerism is dumb, and I generally spend my extra income by investing it. But I also enjoy getting some really great coffee (not necessarily from Starbucks) or watching a really fun TV show. Try not to worry too much about what frivolous…

I do not know, but it feels that you equal the consumerism and education. Perhaps this is an misinterpretation?

Re: Millions of Men Are Missing from the Job Market

#128

Post by rubidium »

sailfast wrote: post #29

Not pointed out in the article, but perhaps in the study(?) - the United States has been engaged in an active war for the past 15 years that likely contributes to an increased number of those taking painkillers for injuries or having some sort of psychological disorder. In my mind I liken it to shellshock and after-effects felt in societies post WWI / WWII. I don't have specifics on the number of wounded / in treatme…

I was curious about this too.

Age 25-54 men in US: 52.3 million. Currently 11.4% are out of workforce, compared to 8.5% in 2000.

2013 statistics: "As of last September, more than 1.6 million military members who’d been deployed in what’s classified as the global war on terror – in Iraq and Afghanistan, primarily – had transitioned to veteran status, VA records show. Of those, about 1 million were from active-duty service and about 675,000 from Reserve or guard deployments.

And of those, about 670,000 veterans have been awarded disability status connected to their military service. Another 100,000 have their initial claims pending, according to a November VA analysis." (http://www.mcclatchydc.com/news/nation-world/national/articl...)

So let's generously round up and say 0.8 million due to military service (majority are men). At most 1.5% of the rise could be attributed to military action. (obviously asking the question: why did the previous wars see so little effect on removal from workforce compared to the present ones?).

However, the major rises in removal from workforce seem correlated with the economic depressions.

The biggest question is: why are men getting knocked out entirely?

Painkillers, military service, and economic recessions have all been around many times since the 1950's. They aren't the reason. My hunch is the loss of valuing community and family in US culture. With no reason/motivation to work, no one depending on them, men just drop out.

Re: Millions of Men Are Missing from the Job Market

#129

Post by eveningcoffee »

muninn_ wrote: post #107
coldtea wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Well we don't need a TV at all. Or a 2,000 square foot house, or an education. We could just subsistence farm or something. Because it's either BS consumerism or subsistence farming?

Well, what's consumerism to one isn't to another. If you're going to discuss needs and say somebody doesn't "need" something, then frankly there is a lot that we don't "need". To sustain life we could probably all get by as farmers and anything else would just be more than we "need".

What farmers? People used to kill other animals and pick berries, fruits and seeds.

Re: Millions of Men Are Missing from the Job Market

#130

Post by tremon »

andrepd wrote: post #41
jokoon wrote: post #27

I'm not even american, I'm french, 31, I have skills in programming (C++, php, python, and some math), did not obtain my degree, and I have never worked more than a month during all my life. I currently have the disability status, and I will soon train to be an army reservist. I regularly see a psychiatrist for therapy and took anti depressant for 4 years. The inactivity and the feeling of exclusion is soul-killing (…

>The simple idea of idleness and staying at home to paint or draw seems to drive people crazy. It kinda does, because for you to be able to idle and sit in your home painting, somebody else has to go on the "giant treadmill" to feed you, house you, and clothe you. Do you think I wouldn't like to idle at home as I please, and paint and write and read and laze about? Only if everybody did that we would all starve to de…

Do you think I wouldn't like to idle at home as I please, and paint and write and read and laze about?

So, why don't you? If you really value these things more than your current life, maybe you should pursue them and let someone else take (part of) your place on the treadmill?

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