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Millions of Men Are Missing from the Job Market

nytimes.com

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Re: Millions of Men Are Missing from the Job Market

#51

Post by bandrami »

sailfast wrote: post #29

Not pointed out in the article, but perhaps in the study(?) - the United States has been engaged in an active war for the past 15 years that likely contributes to an increased number of those taking painkillers for injuries or having some sort of psychological disorder. In my mind I liken it to shellshock and after-effects felt in societies post WWI / WWII. I don't have specifics on the number of wounded / in treatme…

There are two crucial differences between the wars of the past decade and a half and WWII/Vietnam, though:

1. The number of veterans is very small

2. Veterans are overwhelmingly from the richer half of the population

About 0.5% of the cohort currently between the ages of 20 and 40 had any military service (compare to 12% of the WWII cohort and 6% of the Vietnam cohort), and only about half of that population saw service in Iraq or Afghanistan (e.g. I was active duty for almost all of the Iraq war and never went to theater, nor did almost anybody in my battalion).

Furthermore (and this has been troubling the Pentagon for a while), the enlistment/commissioning standards the military has make it very difficult for poor Americans to serve. The poorest 20% of Americans are the least likely to serve, followed by the next-poorest. In fact it's nearly a perfect correlation except that the richest 20% are slightly less likely to serve than the second quintile. This yields a recruit and officer candidate pool that is both richer and whiter than the nation as a whole. (On the other hand, richer whiter servicemembers have abysmal retention rates, so that the standing force is browner and poorer than the nation as a whole because most of the middle class white people leave after one tour).

Re: Millions of Men Are Missing from the Job Market

#52

Post by secstate »

andrepd wrote: post #41
jokoon wrote: post #27

I'm not even american, I'm french, 31, I have skills in programming (C++, php, python, and some math), did not obtain my degree, and I have never worked more than a month during all my life. I currently have the disability status, and I will soon train to be an army reservist. I regularly see a psychiatrist for therapy and took anti depressant for 4 years. The inactivity and the feeling of exclusion is soul-killing (…

>The simple idea of idleness and staying at home to paint or draw seems to drive people crazy. It kinda does, because for you to be able to idle and sit in your home painting, somebody else has to go on the "giant treadmill" to feed you, house you, and clothe you. Do you think I wouldn't like to idle at home as I please, and paint and write and read and laze about? Only if everybody did that we would all starve to de…

I think the problem with your statement is that the Information Revolution came with a philosophy that automation would end the need for 9-5 Industrial Revolution ideas of work.

It hasn't, and we're still working 40 hours a week, but now it's to support the consumption machine that WWII created. Do we really need new original Netflix programming? Do we need whatever crazy-ass pumpkin and coffee flavored beverage a hard working soul at Starbucks or Tim Horton's has cooked up for the fall season? Do we need bigger, cheaper televisions? Faster computers? A new diet craze? A new exercise regime that will be better than the last? Where does this end?

Not to be overly dramatic on a Monday morning, but where are we going with our hustle and drive? When you stop and meditate on that, you realize that to feed, house and clothe us requires 10% of the energy we burn every day, but not if we expect a hedonistic lifestyle where you eat something new, fresh and delicious everyday. I'm not free of that expectation either, so that's not a judgement, just an observation.

Re: Millions of Men Are Missing from the Job Market

#53

Post by huherto »

muse900 wrote: post #32

What I'll write might sound stupid to some but well... There needs to be a re-configuration of the global economy and its system. People like me late 20's and younger might be feeling that they have no future. At least I do. I am working full-time and thats fine. That only pays my day to day expenses, coming the end of the month am always out of money waiting for the next paycheck. Me buying my own house? That sounds…

I feel house prices are artificially high in many places in the US.It has nasty effects all around. It makes everything more expensive. It makes the economy less competitive. You really need two good incomes to afford a house. People has less money to go out and enjoy life. Or they live far from family and friends. And drive an hour every day.

Re: Millions of Men Are Missing from the Job Market

#54

Post by barrkel »

jokoon wrote: post #27

I'm not even american, I'm french, 31, I have skills in programming (C++, php, python, and some math), did not obtain my degree, and I have never worked more than a month during all my life. I currently have the disability status, and I will soon train to be an army reservist. I regularly see a psychiatrist for therapy and took anti depressant for 4 years. The inactivity and the feeling of exclusion is soul-killing (…

Poe's law strikes again.

Nobody owes you a living. "Contributing to the labour force" isn't a religion; it is a necessary condition of life, without which we starve. There's no free lunch.

I think that, to protect your ego against accusations of laziness, you've projected this idea of society as a pointless activity, so you can defend to yourself your choices. It is self-delusional.

Re: Millions of Men Are Missing from the Job Market

#55

Post by throwaway1892 »

muninn_ wrote: post #39
jokoon wrote: post #27

I'm not even american, I'm french, 31, I have skills in programming (C++, php, python, and some math), did not obtain my degree, and I have never worked more than a month during all my life. I currently have the disability status, and I will soon train to be an army reservist. I regularly see a psychiatrist for therapy and took anti depressant for 4 years. The inactivity and the feeling of exclusion is soul-killing (…

Have you considered coming to study in the United States and obtaining a bachelor's degree? Software development is in high demand in all aspects here. At worst you get a break from your current life, at best you start a new one. Let me know if you want to chat more.

Software developement is in high demand in France too. (I arrived in the job market there a year ago and easily got a job)

Re: Millions of Men Are Missing from the Job Market

#56

Post by nitrogen »

dilemma wrote: post #12
slfnflctd wrote: post #4

> 31 percent of those receiving benefits have mental disorders This has got to be a major contributing factor. Add in those with undiagnosed psych problems, and I'm sure it would stand out even more. [Of course, maybe they would be balanced out by the 'fakers'-- but that is almost equally alarming, and itself suggests all kinds of deeper problems.] Both reducing the stigma of and increasing access to mental health ca…

Unemployment causes depression and other types of mental reactions that are classified as disorders or diseases.

It could be argued that it's not unemployment itself that causes depression, but the implications and effects of unemployment. If one could magically find independence, social acceptance, and financial support without employment, I suspect most of the ill effects of unemployment would disappear.

Re: Millions of Men Are Missing from the Job Market

#57

Post by DashRattlesnake »

trentnix wrote: post #42
makomk wrote: post #30

It probably doesn't help that some companies, such as Amazon, like to treat their unskilled labourers as basically disposable. It's a lot more profitable to set performance requirements that are impossible to meet without seriously injuring yourself, then replace all the temp workers regularly with fresh meat, than to have decent working conditions.

The scenario you describe simply doesn't pass the smell test. I own a business (retail) that employs 10 and retail is, to a certain degree, "unskilled". My experience has been that it is very, very difficult to find dependable, trustworthy employees who work diligently and productively. Consequently, employers simply do not have the "luxury" to set up a system that treats employees as disposable. It's not profitable…

> The scenario you describe simply doesn't pass the smell test.

It's pretty well documented. Here are a couple of articles that outline the conditions at Amazon, but I'm sure there are more.

http://highline.huffingtonpost.com/articles/en/life-and-deat...

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2012/02/mac-mcclelland-f...

You might want to also read up on how temp labor is treated, to see how other workers are treated disposably.

> Consequently, employers simply do not have the "luxury" to set up a system that treats employees as disposable.

Yet somehow, in many cases, they do so anyway. You might be an enlightened business owner that properly sees that as foolish, but that doesn't have any bearing on the behavior of other American businesses, especially ones where (unlike yours) the owner can't know all the employees.

Re: Millions of Men Are Missing from the Job Market

#58

Post by reverend_gonzo »

muse900 wrote: post #32

What I'll write might sound stupid to some but well... There needs to be a re-configuration of the global economy and its system. People like me late 20's and younger might be feeling that they have no future. At least I do. I am working full-time and thats fine. That only pays my day to day expenses, coming the end of the month am always out of money waiting for the next paycheck. Me buying my own house? That sounds…

Jesus, there is so much entitlement in this post I don't even know where to start.

No, you don't NEED an Apple iPhone, and a TV with Netflix, and Amazon, and a Gant sweater. There are thousands of families that are surviving just fine without any of that. We have survived for centuries without external entertainment, and suddenly, you NEED this so you don't get bored?

Why not have a conversation with your wife. Sit down at the dinner table and have a conversation with your family. Go for a hike out in nature. There are ways to entertain yourself without modern technology.

If you want to keep up with the Jones's, yeah, you're going to have to make more, or sacrifice your life in other ways.

You want to buy a house in your 30s? Figure out how to increase your value so you can get paid more, or start saving your money.

Pensions are long gone. They have IRAs. If you're worried about retirement, set money aside right now. Of course, this may mean you can't be the most recent iPhone that was released. Tradeoffs. Everything has tradeoffs.

There is nothing guaranteed in life but death and taxes. Keep that in mind, and figure out what's most important to you. Welcome to the real world.

Re: Millions of Men Are Missing from the Job Market

#60

Post by bandrami »

a_c wrote: post #11

> ... were not in the labor force, which means that they were not employed and were not seeking a job. Does entrepreneurs constitute labor force? If so, then "labor force" and "not employed and not seeking a job" are not exactly the same

Yes, at least by BLS's instrument, entrepreneurs are both in the labor force and employed.

Census runs a separate survey with separate definitions, and so does Treasury -- yes, it's infuriating -- and I don't know how entrepreneurs and SBOs fit in to those, but for BLS they count as employed if they're actually doing work for the company they founded (even if they're not yet taking a paycheck).

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