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Why killer whales should not be kept in captivity

bbc.com

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Re: Why killer whales should not be kept in captivity

#121

Post by SixSigma »

Tiktaalik wrote: post #16

> In line with this, several decades of observation show that orcas are not naturally violent towards humans. There are no recorded cases of a wild orca killing a human. In a recent BBC Attenborough documentary (I think Frozen Planet) there was a sequence where they showed teams of killer whales swiftly swimming just under the surface to create a wave in an attempt to knock a seal off an ice flow so that they could e…

Aspey Cherry relates a tale on Scott's Antarctic mission when they dragged a horse from the ice in a desperate tug-of-war with the humans and ate it.

http://www.davidspilmanfinebooks.com/pages/books/13027/aspey...

You don't have to pay $350 for the print version, it's on Gutenberg

http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/14363

Re: Why killer whales should not be kept in captivity

#122

Post by Synaesthesia »

cm3 wrote: post #94

Is there some animal which should be kept in captivity? For instance, I don't understand how it's accepted to cage birds and keep them from flying. It makes no sense to me. Please explain, as I'm sure there's a valid reason, but if you try to look it up you end up on animal rights activist sites that don't explain much.

People also shouldn't be kept in captivity.

Re: Why killer whales should not be kept in captivity

#123

Post by Synaesthesia »

logfromblammo wrote: post #87
noondip wrote: post #73

No one is "meant" to be tortured and abused. I find you reply to be morally abhorrent and absolutely disgusting. Right now, at this very moment, on American highways, there are no less than 5,000 concentration camp trucks. Trucks that we’ve constructed. Inside these trucks there are living, terrified, innocent beings (such as) cows, pigs and chickens. These trucks are being driven to concentration camp slaughterhouse…

I find your reference to "concentration camps" in relation to livestock finishing feedlots and slaughterhouses to be tremendously inappropriate. Please find another way to shock and horrify readers into treating food animals more humanely. It might not have been your intent, but you are reducing the victims of actual concentration camps to the status of food animals.

I think it's correct, in fact livestock farms are worse than most concentration camps.

Re: Why killer whales should not be kept in captivity

#124

Post by pbhjpbhj »

Tiktaalik wrote: post #100
azakai wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's certainly a factor. However, orca are not limited to cold climates, even if they are found more there. Their natural range includes all oceans, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killer_whale#Range_and_habitat and they can encounter humans not just when the humans are swimming - which is rare in cold climates - but also when they are fishing. Furthermore, there are also practically no cases of other dolphins than o…

An additional reason could be how they find they prey. I’ve read that most of the time shark attacks are somewhat accidental with the shark biting to find out what something is, but not continuing the attack. It could be that the echolocation abilities of toothed whales provides them with a superior ability to discern a human from their typical favoured prey and they don't make mistakes. It would be ambitious for a d…

Perhaps humans smell bad.

Re: Why killer whales should not be kept in captivity

#125

Post by pbhjpbhj »

DamnYuppie wrote: post #25
funkyy wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Attacks on humans by Orcas happens. Its that they do not eat humans, once they realize its us, they let go and swim away. They need to taste us first, especially if none of the members of group haven't tasted or interacted with humans before.

Same with most sharks. They have to bite you to know what you are, most shark attacks are quick strikes and then they let the victim go.

Is that different to how such sharks usually hunt larger prey? I could imagine it being a good technique, bite retreat and wait for the prey to weaken/die; rather than having a thrashing, struggling creature next to your head.

Re: Why killer whales should not be kept in captivity

#126

Post by pbhjpbhj »

DanBC wrote: post #96
funkyy wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The smallest finger - hopefully its the one in your foot ;) But to be serious, I wonder if cutting yourself would be enough for them to taste you and go away or if it would have opposite effect.

If you're ever in a situation where you get a choice of which finger to lose don't chose your little finger. You want to keep your index (or first) finger, and your little (or forth) finger, and you probably want to keep your ring (or third) finger. A bunch of stuff becomes much harder if you don't have a little finger.

Doing pottery I primarily use my middle fingers and thumbs ... could you share your reasoning?

Re: Why killer whales should not be kept in captivity

#127

Post by pbhjpbhj »

toomuchtodo wrote: post #51
DanBC wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> and thus don't really care about their conditions in captivity. Several vigorous campaigns existed to improve the conditions for pigs. Look at England for an example, where changes in English law were voluntarily followed by Danish and Dutch pig farmers so they could compete on welfare standards. See also "free range" eggs and higher welfare farm standards. Plenty of people like eating meat but will only buy meat f…

As soon as vat grown meat surpasses traditional meat sources in cost and quality, it'll make life a whole lot easier for everyone.

Except farmers, and the business eco-system that's grown around them. Oh, and possibly everyone else if vat-grown is more expensive and/or more energy intensive causing the economies of scale for traditional meat production to alter ... will vat-grown be able to beat insects as a source of protein?

Re: Why killer whales should not be kept in captivity

#128

Post by pbhjpbhj »

Synaesthesia wrote: post #122
cm3 wrote: post #94

Is there some animal which should be kept in captivity? For instance, I don't understand how it's accepted to cage birds and keep them from flying. It makes no sense to me. Please explain, as I'm sure there's a valid reason, but if you try to look it up you end up on animal rights activist sites that don't explain much.

People also shouldn't be kept in captivity.

I disagree. People who pose a significant threat to wider society should be incarcerated IMO, either for safety or punishment purposes. Locking up animals that have caused no significant harm seems wrong unless there is some other reason, eg food production.

Personally I'm fine morally with eating non factory-farmed meat; keeping a massive creature locked up just to use as part of a show to me is morally objectionable.

Zoos seem terrible places on the whole; safari parks are acceptable to me though. I remember with great sadness my first visit to a zoo (in the UK, as an adult) seeing a lion in a tiny cage pacing up and down.

Re: Why killer whales should not be kept in captivity

#129

Post by pbhjpbhj »

logfromblammo wrote: post #89
kazinator wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Dogs are not exactly in captivity; they are domestic. Many of them show that they are not in captivity by roaming freely but then returning home. They do so even if they are not verbally threatened with negative consequences if they fail to come home; and they wouldn't understand that anyway. :) Domestic animals kept as pets that are treated well have good lives that they arguably enjoy. Wild animals have it very tou…

Hachiko. Greyfriars Bobby. Argos. Silverton's Bobbie. Some dogs are famous (worldwide!) for acts of extraordinary loyalty toward their humans.

Without conversation how can you tell it's loyalty. An animal trained from birth to stay by their master in order not to be chastised and in order to be fed; is it loyalty or conditioning. You can condition a human to "stand in line" but whilst their actions may appear loyal we can often find that assumption to be false.

Loyalty of animals seems to be something for which we have no good evidence?

Re: Why killer whales should not be kept in captivity

#130

Post by vacri »

rosser wrote: post #45
funkyy wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pigs are meant to be kept as farm animals. They were selectively domesticated. Same with chickens, sheep, cows etc. Problem with Orcas is that they are not use to live in captivity. They were just caught in the sea and forced to do tricks. Its same with large wild cats - they have been not selectively chosen over decades to join the human society.

Nothing is "meant" to be kept as a farm animal. The choices we've made about which animals we keep as livestock, which we keep as pets, and which we keep in zoos (or, per TFA, only slightly oversized swimming pools) are in absolutely no way derived from some sort of teleological mandate.

> Nothing is "meant" to be kept as a farm animal.

Modern sheep are. If they're not sheared regularly and their fleece is allowed to grow, they end up suffering quite a lot - they are not suitable for living in the wild, and in the other direction, are also not particularly suitable as pets.

Yes, nature is not a thing with intentions, but modern sheep are a combination of natural processes and humans (who do have intentions) meddling with things.

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