Why killer whales should not be kept in captivity • Hacker News Board

Re: Why killer whales should not be kept in captivity

#81

Post by sxcurry » Fri, Mar 11, 2016, 10:52 PM UTC

cookiecaper wrote: post #69

dpflan wrote: post #5

Blackfish is definitely a provocative documentary on this topic of killer whale captivity.

Blackfish provoked me, but not in the expected manner. I was actually impressed that over 4 decades of orca captivity, they could only identify a small number of violent incidents, and while it's sad that these incidents occurred, it seems like a known occupational hazard whenever dealing with large animals. They tried to make it out like the small group of trainers that had been injured or killed over the years had…

Animal captivity is a net good - except for the animals. If you believe, as many people do, that all animals should have the same basic rights, then captivity is shameful. In the future, human animals will look back with revulsion at the way we currently treat other animals.

Re: Why killer whales should not be kept in captivity

#82

Post by kefka » Fri, Mar 11, 2016, 10:52 PM UTC

noondip wrote: post #77

kefka wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not only that, but plants respond to stimuli, remember, chemically 'moan' when sick, scream when they are being harmed or killed (grass cutting), and talk amongst each other (again, chemical triggers). If you don't eat living things, that leaves milk and honey. I'm not saying "become X-ist". I'm saying that in order for us to live, others must die. Plants, animals and others aren't inherently worth more or less than…

You are ignorant or dishonest if you think "killing" a plant and animal is in any way equatable. Edit: Even supposing plants have the ability to suffer and experience pain in the same way non-human animals do, you should be immediately compelled to stop their abuse, for the raising of livestock "injures" and "kills" many, many more plants than if you had just eaten them for sustenance directly. Have a look at this br…

Why is it so hard to acknowledge that plants:

     1. Feel
     2. Learn
     3. Respond to pain
     4. Not respond to pain if under anaesthesia
     5. Chemically whimper if they are sick
     6. Communicate

... That there might be something deeper? Where is your sense of scientific inquiry that the previously held beliefs are potentially wrong?

Would you want to be able to open up a line of communication if it were indeed possible?

Re: Why killer whales should not be kept in captivity

#83

Post by danrisso3 » Fri, Mar 11, 2016, 10:53 PM UTC

diogenescynic wrote: post #43

LeifCarrotson wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On the one hand, I wish I lived in an era of human history when technology had improved to the point where we could explore or communicate with distant planets and meet other sentient life forms. On the other hand, our treatment of lifeforms of varying difference to ourselves already on our planet is deeply troubling. The thought of that culture spreading across the galaxy like a disease is horrifying. I have a pet d…

Demetri Martin: It seems like there's a fine line between having a pet and having a hostage from a different species. You go to somebody's house, they're like, "Close the door. He'll get out. CLOSE THE DOOR! HE'LL GET OUT!" Okay. What kind of relationship do you have with this dog, exactly?

It seems like there's a fine line between having a toddler and having a hostage from the same species. You go to somebody's house, they're like, "Close the door. He'll get out. CLOSE THE DOOR! HE'LL GET OUT!" Okay. What kind of relationship do you have with this kid, exactly?

Re: Why killer whales should not be kept in captivity

#84

Post by worldsoup » Fri, Mar 11, 2016, 10:56 PM UTC

funkyy wrote: post #39

cphoover wrote: post #24

I agree that killer whale's shouldn't be kept in captivity, but than on the other hand, I also love me some bacon. Pigs are also sentient creatures with high intelligence yet we see them as a food source, and thus don't really care about their conditions in captivity.

Pigs are meant to be kept as farm animals. They were selectively domesticated. Same with chickens, sheep, cows etc. Problem with Orcas is that they are not use to live in captivity. They were just caught in the sea and forced to do tricks. Its same with large wild cats - they have been not selectively chosen over decades to join the human society.

"meant to" might not be the best term, but it's true that pigs are domesticated animals, meaning they've been selectively bred to benefit humans and to have a predisposition towards us. the same can definitely not be said about orcas

Re: Why killer whales should not be kept in captivity

#85

Post by jemfinch » Fri, Mar 11, 2016, 10:57 PM UTC

zipwitch wrote: post #14

jqm wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At what point does sentience end? Whales? Rats? Birds? Fish? Insects? Plants? Bacteria? Because something has a higher order nervous system does that mean we have to assign it equal rights? How high an order of system would be required to have equal rights? Why does it really matter how something else feels other than members of our own species? For the record I generally agree with not keeping killer whales in capti…

I've no idea where we can draw a line on "sentience". But when it comes to creatures that seem highly likely to be on the same side of the line that we are, I think its far better to err by being too generous with our definitions.

If you literally have "no idea where we can draw a line", then you're begging the question by even talking about "creatures that seem highly likely to be on the same of the line." You don't know where the line is, so you can't know where creatures stand with respect to the line.

Re: Why killer whales should not be kept in captivity

#86

Post by scoofy » Fri, Mar 11, 2016, 11:00 PM UTC

noondip wrote: post #71

scoofy wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, there is animal rights, and animal welfare. I think one of the main problems for orcas is size. Creating an appropriately sized habitat for them would be a gargantuan endeavor, however, if we could, i think a lot of us would be less vehemently opposed to keeping them in captivity. For pigs, this is entirely plausible. While i'm also very opposed to our current factory farming practices, since i'm fairly nihilisti…

How would you feel if the moment you were born someone else had already planned the day of your execution?

This is such a sophomoric approach to ethics it hardly deserves a response. Animals are not humans. They are hardly likely to have the same capacity to suffer. Anthropomorphizing them is not a credible way to talk about the issue. At best they ought to be compared to a severely mentally disabled human. Still deserving of dignity, but hardly treated as equal.

Re: Why killer whales should not be kept in captivity

#87

Post by logfromblammo » Fri, Mar 11, 2016, 11:03 PM UTC

noondip wrote: post #73

No one is "meant" to be tortured and abused. I find you reply to be morally abhorrent and absolutely disgusting. Right now, at this very moment, on American highways, there are no less than 5,000 concentration camp trucks. Trucks that we’ve constructed. Inside these trucks there are living, terrified, innocent beings (such as) cows, pigs and chickens. These trucks are being driven to concentration camp slaughterhouse…

I find your reference to "concentration camps" in relation to livestock finishing feedlots and slaughterhouses to be tremendously inappropriate. Please find another way to shock and horrify readers into treating food animals more humanely.

It might not have been your intent, but you are reducing the victims of actual concentration camps to the status of food animals.

Re: Why killer whales should not be kept in captivity

#88

Post by Swizec » Fri, Mar 11, 2016, 11:06 PM UTC

darklajid wrote: post #67

Fomite wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except from any perspective other than "People", Killer Whale is a pretty apt title. They are terrifyingly effective predators.

But isn't the article trying to appeal to people? And here's the bigger problem I (well, I stated it over and over again: This was kinda introduced to me rather recently) have: As a non-native speaker of English 'to kill' is neutral. A fox kills a hen. 'killer' is immediately associated with ethical and moral values, feels much closer to murderer. Actually .. I have trouble translating 'killer' back to my native lang…

As a non-native speaker who lives in the US and does a lot of English. Killer also means twoplus good or exciting in some contexts. "Killer app" for instance.

"Slang. something or someone having a formidable impact, devastating effect, etc.:"

Orcas are nothing if not formidable.

Re: Why killer whales should not be kept in captivity

#89

Post by logfromblammo » Fri, Mar 11, 2016, 11:11 PM UTC

kazinator wrote: post #11

LeifCarrotson wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On the one hand, I wish I lived in an era of human history when technology had improved to the point where we could explore or communicate with distant planets and meet other sentient life forms. On the other hand, our treatment of lifeforms of varying difference to ourselves already on our planet is deeply troubling. The thought of that culture spreading across the galaxy like a disease is horrifying. I have a pet d…

Dogs are not exactly in captivity; they are domestic. Many of them show that they are not in captivity by roaming freely but then returning home. They do so even if they are not verbally threatened with negative consequences if they fail to come home; and they wouldn't understand that anyway. :) Domestic animals kept as pets that are treated well have good lives that they arguably enjoy. Wild animals have it very tou…

Hachiko. Greyfriars Bobby. Argos. Silverton's Bobbie.

Some dogs are famous (worldwide!) for acts of extraordinary loyalty toward their humans.

Re: Why killer whales should not be kept in captivity

#90

Post by smegger001 » Fri, Mar 11, 2016, 11:12 PM UTC

fnovd wrote: post #74

tn13 wrote: post #36

Being one-issue fundamentalist is always a bad thing. A sweeping statement "killer whales should not be ..." does not seem convincing. No one is even trying to put all killer whales in aquarium. Having few of them where humans could watch them is a good thing. Where else would my 5 year old know about these giant creatures, after all he needs to do something for their preservation. Watching wildlife up and close is a…

>Having few of them where humans could watch them is a good thing. For humans, maybe. How is it good for orcas? Isn't the issue here that we are denying agency from intelligent beings?

As a species it very good thing as it provides awareness of them and lets the public learn about them and want to protect the species as individual animal it kinda sucks.